[HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

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Greywing
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[HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Greywing » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:42 pm

In today's blogpost i talk about plans and ideas regarding rarity. Read the blogpost here : http://nulll-void.com/games/wiki/doku.p ... ard_rarity

There's one change that's confirmed already : the addition of the 'uncommon' tier. This is where strong (Spark, Thogrom Bomber, etc) and dual color commons will go.

Then there's some ideas i have to change Legends. In short i would like to see them bound to the first player that plays a certain legend - this means that, for the remainder of a battle, that player is the only one who is allowed to play that legend.

To balance this, there's a number of things that can or must change, here's the list (as copied from the blogpost) :
  • First of all, they must all sound like legends. Example : we have 'Seraphine, the enslaved', a CC hive queen with a name and a certain backstory. There is also 'Battle Queen', which is the generic term for this creature - every CC hive has a queen, this one happens to be one of the 'battle' variation, a more agressive one, but beyond that there's nothing unique about it. Under this new system, Seraphine is proper legend, but Battle queen might have to be downgraded to elite, or i could turn that card into a proper legend as well.
  • These cards should be strong, but not in the way that having them on the board guarantees your victory. I rather give these cards unique abilities that would invite players to build decks around them. When it comes to overall strength, i'd place them on the same level as elites. If legends are to be 'enablers' of tactics, it would make sense that there are other cards that would help or benefit from legends. Chyriax' disciple could get a bonus every turn, as long as Chyriax is in play and allied. Seraphine's herald could do something while Seraphine is not in play, but is in it's owners hand or deck, and so on.
  • There should be more legends, to lower the odds of players finding themselves unable to play their legends because their opponent already played the same card. These don't always have to be battleship sized, they could be fighters, cruisers, etc.
  • In games with more than 2 players, players may set up teams. Players within a team can't attack each other, but beyond that, i haven't figured out any other benefits yet (a shared energy pool looks like something worth looking into, or even allowing allies to launch ships in any slot owned by an ally instead of just their own slots). For legends, instead of binding them to the player that launched them, they could be bound to the team that launched it instead.
  • Binding of legends could be turned into a mechanic that may be subject to abilities, for instance there could be cards that can unbind a certain legend from a player, allowing other players to play that legend. It's a very niche idea at the moment, but it's worth considering and can be extended - example : your opponent has played a legend and thus it's now bound to that player. You have the same legend and want to undo the bind between that player and this legend. Instead of there being a niche action that undoes this bind, it would be interesting if you could use the legend card itself, for instance sacrificing it and paying its card cost to make that legend 'unbound' again. The next player to play this legend will see it bound to him now. This is just an example, but the main idea is that binding itself would get a counter.

Let me know what you think about this!
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:06 pm

Things I want to see in games with more than 2 players:

~A system in which it's free for all and you may deploy your ship in any of three directions. It attacks the player in that direction.
~If a player falls, his slots (ie, the ship slots) go to whoever knocked them down, depending on the settings.
~For 2v2, shared slots and energy pool are the benefit.
~I'd like a system where there are 2 lines of ships; the front line, and the back line. The back line can't be hit by targeted damage from the opposing base's structures, but it also can't attack the opposing base if the front line's slot is occupied, even if it's a berserker. Under this system, a back-of-the-line berserker attacks the opponents back of the line instead.
~Two copies of the legend guarantee that the binding automatically goes to the new player.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Ken Ddoox » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:52 pm

This post is a lot more content-rich than the previous too-technical one, hehe.

Story, or logic-wise, I think you have a good point, a 'bound' legend. But I've more than once got to the point where I gladly sacrificed my only legend in the deck to automatically kill the one launched by the other base. I think it can be called a somewhat strategy to deal with powerful ships?

I myself personally would like to see only battleship-sized legendary, or if it doesn't have super high hp it should be capable of holding itself up for at least 10 turns. What good of a so-called legendary when it's not strong enough? I do see the point in having smaller legendary, but would it make sense to have a "legendary fighter"? When I think of fighter I think of small, low cost ships whose main purpose is to block slots in wait for bigger ships. Now what would a legendary fighter do considering that purpose? Sure it could be better, has higher stats and ability, but wouldn't that just make it a higher tier ship? "Legendary", in my opinion, as the meaning of the word itself, should be epic, beyond strong. Not game-breaking epic, just big and powerful, cost a lot to launch but worth the energy.

I say you make another batch of 16-18 legendary, maybe with different splash or pure, vamp up the existing ones and see how it goes.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Greywing » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:38 pm

Ken Ddoox wrote:But I've more than once got to the point where I gladly sacrificed my only legend in the deck to automatically kill the one launched by the other base. I think it can be called a somewhat strategy to deal with powerful ships?


I don't like that system - there are plenty of ways to destroy ships.

Ken Ddoox wrote:I myself personally would like to see only battleship-sized legendary, or if it doesn't have super high hp it should be capable of holding itself up for at least 10 turns. What good of a so-called legendary when it's not strong enough? I do see the point in having smaller legendary, but would it make sense to have a "legendary fighter"? When I think of fighter I think of small, low cost ships whose main purpose is to block slots in wait for bigger ships. Now what would a legendary fighter do considering that purpose? Sure it could be better, has higher stats and ability, but wouldn't that just make it a higher tier ship? "Legendary", in my opinion, as the meaning of the word itself, should be epic, beyond strong. Not game-breaking epic, just big and powerful, cost a lot to launch but worth the energy.


Obviously there won't be Vector like legends. Legends will be on the same level as current elites, and that can include powerful fighters, see Firewing - a legendary version of Firewing would be even stronger. This way there can be legends that cost less than 5 energy for instance, which is interesting as well.

Wv_Hawk_vW wrote:Things I want to see in games with more than 2 players:


The specifics of XvX games are not yet set in stone, this is something that i'm not going to get started on for a long while most likely. Basically i want to support up to 4 players in a game, in a first version this will be one human player maximum and the rest AIs (future patches after release might add realtime pvp and eventually 4 player pvp). Within these 4 players there's many configurations possible : 1v1, 1v2, 1v1v1, 2v2, 1v1v1v1, this includes teams. XvX games is not what this blogpost is about.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby joacobanfield » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:59 pm

Original FireWing in HD3?? Please, Grey!
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby FrancoK » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:26 pm

Nice post. :)

Legends
I agree launching a Legend and killing the same Legend already launched is not a good thing, I never liked it. ::)

We are in a science fiction environment, so there is no summoned creature that can't be in two places at the same time.

However, we are in a science fiction environment, and if I have the blueprints of a ship and the technology to build it, I should be able to build and use it.

Even the creatures, like 'Seraphine, the enslaved' can be cloned or recreated in the same condition.

For sure Battle Queens can fight on the field one against the other.

About the limitation, I would say you can have only one Legend in a deck; they have to be more unique than powerful, so a unique fighter can be legendary more than a ship "I-m-here-to-stay-and-wreck-the-enemy".



Multiplayers
I'd like it, even if it could be complex, for the player, to manage a 1v1v1 or 1v1v1v1 combat.

Definitively sharing the slots for ships, maybe for structures with the ally can be a good idea.
Even using the allied energy, after using mine, can be an option.

Since there are so few players online, the players should be able to play against/together all AI decks.


New fight options
The dual line of ships is a good option, maybe in HD7 it will be the default. :)
Those are my suggests:
1. dual line of ships and structures
2. You cannot target a second line ship (SLS) if you do not destroy the first line ship (FLS), before. This include Lost mine.
3. Same as before for structure.
4. A SLS cannot attack if there is a FLS in the corresponding slot.
5. A second line structure cannot attack the enemy (ship/structure/base whatever) if there is a first line structure in the corresponding slot.
6. Berserk will "jump" the first line and hit the second line (or jump the second line and hit the base if there is no FL), ethereal (the new ability) will jump all the lines and hit the base.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby joacobanfield » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:26 pm

Really Agree. Also we could put moar TITANS!!!!
Tanyu´Lana
Tanyu´Taya
Tanyu Isha
Tanyu Orin
From the original Aeon:"This led to the creation of the first
80
generation of the Tanyu class war vessels. These ships were to
outperform any other warship in existence and to deal with the
dragons once and for all. Four of them were built, next to Taya and
Lana, there were Tanyu’Isha and Tanyu’Orin,"
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby DEEP SPACE » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:28 pm

joacobanfield wrote:Really Agree. Also we could put moar TITANS!!!!
Tanyu´Lana
Tanyu´Taya
Tanyu Isha
Tanyu Orin
From the original Aeon:"This led to the creation of the first
80
generation of the Tanyu class war vessels. These ships were to
outperform any other warship in existence and to deal with the
dragons once and for all. Four of them were built, next to Taya and
Lana, there were Tanyu’Isha and Tanyu’Orin,"


We are discussing about rarity, not card classes.
But I agree that there should be more Titans, there is also a Scientist class that doesn't actualy have ship with it in HD:X.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby joacobanfield » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:31 am

Oops... Anyways they should be uniques, and very powerfull.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby DEEP SPACE » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:06 am

joacobanfield wrote:Oops... Anyways they should be uniques, and very powerfull.


Did you read the devblog?

The "Unique" rarity was deleted from the game.

And regarding rarity.
Cards like Lesser Rift Demon and Recycler also deserve to being uncommon, due they power. Greater Rift Demon doesn't sounds to Legendary, considering that they are more powerfull stage of Rift Demons.

Solaris
Darkalis
Nebularis
Fusionalis
Gravitalis
Entropis
Dimensionalis
Elementalis
Spectralis

They should be also Legendary Structures and Actions. Like the TM Mysterious Technospire.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby joacobanfield » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:51 am

so the Tanyu will be Elites...
HU legendary Action.
Nuclear Bombs!!!
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby rubber » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:07 am

Greywing wrote:In today's blogpost i talk about plans and ideas regarding rarity. Read the blogpost here : http://nulll-void.com/games/wiki/doku.p ... ard_rarity
...
Let me know what you think about this!


I'm in full support of those plans...
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Greywing » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:39 am

Some of the current legends will have to be renamed, i have some ideas already, but the final names and abilities will be decided later. If i make Tanyu class ships for HD, they will obviously be legends. And legends indeed don't have to be limited to ships.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Biaka » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:56 pm

My opinion is that there probably must be one more rarity between elites and legends, like "great". Similar greats would be accessible for both players simultaneously, but there could be only one of each great on one side.
It is unlikely that some Mith'ri'aeil horde would have two Voidbringers at the same time, but that doesn't mean that if one horde has one, the opposing horde doesn't. Voidbringer is like a type of MT, not a unique thing, although rare. And about Ultranoughts:
"...You are the hivemaster of one of these behemoth ships..." - first page of the Ultranought story.

On the other hand, Chyriax is an unique specimen, and its unlikely that several Arcane Voidsplitters exist - so they are legends.

I just don't think that some of the old legends must become elites. They should be more rare than elites, and with some restrictions, but not unique.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Greywing » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:36 pm

I had considered adding in 'Epic' rarity, for those legends that would be downgraded to non-legend status, but the current Elite is sufficient i believe. Most legends aren't that much more powerful than Elites and i don't want them to be, i rather want them to be unique or special.

Ultranought will be renamed, and a regular Ultranought card might eventually be added. The legend is simply a special version of the regular Ultranought - same deal with Phoenix.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby DEEP SPACE » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:35 am

Do you plan to add the carrier version of the Ultranought?
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Ken Ddoox » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:42 am

Thinking of legendary structures, I suggest an all energy generator with and additional 1 of choice. Then another one which can kill any ship on the board on the cost of exactly the cost of that ship! That'll be nice :D
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Greywing » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:11 am

I do have some vague ideas for new cards, but all of this is to be looked into after all the gameplay related code is done. It's also likely that the first proper release of the game doesn't have new cards and that they'll all come through future expansions/updates/events - it's hard to say at this point in development.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:06 pm

Ken Ddoox wrote:Thinking of legendary structures, I suggest an all energy generator with and additional 1 of choice. Then another one which can kill any ship on the board on the cost of exactly the cost of that ship! That'll be nice :D


the cost of the ship or 10, whichever is greater.
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Re: [HD 3] Card rarity and legend changes.

Postby DEEP SPACE » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:07 pm

Greywing wrote:It's also likely that the first proper release of the game doesn't have new cards and that they'll all come through future expansions/updates/events


i like the idea. Also, it makes easier the creation of their card images.
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