Notes about the second human battleship

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Notes about the second human battleship

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:21 pm

First battleship: HIR-aga.
Second battleship: HIR-oto.
...
All battleships of that name: Hir-(vowel)(consonant)(vowel)

so, for example:

Hireze
Hirata
Hirulu
Hiropo

etc

Furthermore, the second human battleship continues on the theme of "one attack ship, one defense ship", completing the trilogy of pairs.

Vector/Nagato
Breaker class/Pulsar class
Hiraga/Flagship Hiroto

In addition to this, a fleet admiral may find he likes Hiroto better than Hiraga, due to the higher defensive capabilities, while a captain may like Hiraga better than Hiroto.
For some reason, Hiroto seems lower-tech than Pulsar class, it is still significantly stronger, though whether it's better or not is to be seen.
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anip
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby anip » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:09 pm

I guess I am a Captain than.

Because I tried out having both in same deck, 3 Hiraga and 3 Hiroto

Hiraga still offer better attack (targeting) and defensive (retaliate) features.

While Hiroto may be moderate good with it's 1 resistance, but the Launch Ability is only good if you're base isn't being energy deprived (as it does cost quite a high amount of energy).

Since Hiroto's ability is only good in the same turn you place out other ships that doesn't have "Attack when Launch" or you got mass disabled.
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby xElite » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:25 am

Hiraga gets 12 attack, 34(36) defence, 4 retaliation, 3 damage targeted acti, (and 2 damage to opponent base CIP ability when upgraded)
Hiroto gets 8 damage, 44(46/48) defence, 1 resistance, and an all ships can attack CIP ability.

In a direct 1v1 fight Hiraga will always beat Hiroto. A lvl 1 Hiraga vs a lvl 4 Hiroto with the Hiroto firing first (granted it almost always will due to it's CIP ability) and the Hiraga not using its acti = Hiraga still wins (and I'd argue that resistance is a strong counter for retaliation and for damage actis).

Still Hiroto's "all ships can attack" CIP ability is extremely powerful.
1) Hiroto can attack on the turn it is launched.
2) If you just launched a bunch of ships then launching Hiroto will enable them all to attack.
3) If if all your ships are disabled then launching Hiroto will enable them all to attack. (You can actually avoid the downside of solar storm this way).

However despite the power of this ability I'd argue that it's somewhat situational. You can only take advantage of #2 if you've got a large stockpile of energy, enough to launch a battleship and several other ships in the same turn. You can only take advantage of #3 if a lot of your ships get disabled (and it just doesn't seem worthwhile keeping a battleship in reserve in your hand just to counter disables). Attack when launched is always useful and it's nice to have on a battleship, but that's only part of the "all ships can attack" ability.

So IMO the Hiraga is the stronger pick by far. Stronger direct fighter, better field control with it's acti, good almost all the time rather than being situational. I'd even go so far to say the Hiroto could possibly do with a slight buff to its resistance. With 2 res Hiroto would still always lose to Hiraga, but it would have great survivability against weaker foes. Another idea might be to add the "all ships can attack" ability as a acti on the Hiroto with say a 4 or 5 energy cost, so it could fulfill its flagship role on multiple turns not just when it's launched.
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:37 am

One of the advantages that Hiroto has over Hiraga is that it will always get first strike, much like Vector or Nagato. Even if it affects no other ships, its CIP will always affect itself, effectively giving it haste.
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby xElite » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:59 pm

I already pointed that out, but I don't think it's really enough to compensate for Hiroto having half the damage output of Hiraga. (8 vs 12 + 4 ret + 3 acti).
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby Greywing » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:08 pm

The stats of these new cards aren't final, if needed i'll adjust them in a future patch.

Being able to attack instantly and hit the base (or a ship) for a surprise 8 damage seems quite powerful to me. One of the higher instant damage ships in the game right now.
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby xElite » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:50 pm

Greywing wrote:The stats of these new cards aren't final, if needed i'll adjust them in a future patch.

Being able to attack instantly and hit the base (or a ship) for a surprise 8 damage seems quite powerful to me. One of the higher instant damage ships in the game right now.


It is powerful but the humble Nagato does the job almost as well.

Nagato = 5 surprise damage
Nagato + attack gain = 6 surprise damage
lvl 3 Nagato + attack gain = 7 surprise damage

5-6 surprise damage is pretty common, 6 & Chimera attack you can get on Neyon'Moru, 10-13 you can get on Shatters but they die at the end of the turn, 8 you can get on the Greater Solar Demon. Actually the Greater Solar Demon is looking largely worse than Hiroto - same attack, much less defence, no resistance, higher cost when upgraded, CIP "attack when launched" rather than "all ships can attack". The only advantage it has is its (admittedly rather nice) targeted damage acti.

So for rush attacks fighters are extremely competitive with the Hiroto and if we're talking about any prolonged engagement then the Hiraga is much better. Even discounting retaliation and its acti.

Turn 1 - Hiroto does 8 (8 total) vs Hiraga does 0 (0 total)
Turn 2 - Hiroto does 8 (16 total) vs Hiraga does 12 (12 total)
Turn 3 - Hiroto does 8 (24 total) vs Hiraga does 12 (24 total)
Turn 4 - Hiroto does 8 (32 total) vs Hiraga does 12 (36 total)

And Resistance will affect the Hiraga less as it's doing fewer hits + more damage per hit. (Retaliation would effect the Hiraga less too, if not for it's CIP ability).

It's probably best to wait a while and see how the card handles itself but personally I don't see myself using the Hiroto over the Hiraga.
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby anip » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:46 am

If we're doing a 1 vs 1 face off between Hiraga and Hiroto... it'll be like this

(Hiraga goes first)
1 - Launch Hiraga 12/34
. . . . . (waits)
2 - Launch Hiroto 8/44
. . . . . (attacks Hiraga for 8 dmg, Hiraga 12/26, retaliated for 3 dmg, Hiroto 8/41)
3 - Hiraga 12/26 uses ability, deal 2 dmg, Hiroto 8/39
. . . . . (attacks Hiroto for 11 dmg, Hiroto 8/28)
4 - Hiroto 8/28
. . . . . (attacks Hiraga for 8 dmg, Hiraga 12/18, retaliated for 3 dmg, Hiroto 8/25)
5 - Hiraga 12/18 uses ability, deal 2 dmg, Hiroto 8/23
. . . . . (attacks Hiroto for 11 dmg, Hiroto 8/12)
6 - Hiroto 8/12
. . . . . (attacks Hiraga for 8 dmg, Hiraga 12/10, retaliated for 3 dmg, Hiroto 8/9)
7 - Hiraga 12/10 uses ability, deal 2 dmg, Hiroto 8/7)
. . . . . (attacks Hiroto for 12 dmg, Hiroto 8/-5)
. . . . . . . . . Hiroto destroyed, Hiraga left with 12/10

(Hiroto goes first)
1 - Launch Hiroto 8/44
. . . . . (attacks opposing base for 8 HP)
2 - Launch Hiraga 12/34
. . . . . (waits)
3 - Hiroto 8/44
. . . . . (attacks Hiraga for 8 dmg, Hiraga 12/26, retaliated for 3 dmg, Hiroto 8/41)
4 - Hiraga 12/26 uses ability, deal 2 dmg, Hiroto 8/39
. . . . . (attacks Hiroto for 11 dmg, Hiroto 8/28)
5 - Hiroto 8/28
. . . . . (attacks Hiraga for 8 dmg, Hiraga 12/18, retaliated for 3 dmg, Hiroto 8/25)
6 - Hiraga 12/18 uses ability, deal 2 dmg, Hiroto 8/23
. . . . . (attacks Hiroto for 11 dmg, Hiroto 8/12)
7 - Hiroto 8/12
. . . . . (attacks Hiraga for 8 dmg, Hiraga 12/10, retaliated for 3 dmg, Hiroto 8/9)
8 - Hiraga 12/10 uses ability, deal 2 dmg, Hiroto 8/7)
. . . . . (attacks Hiroto for 12 dmg, Hiroto 8/-5)
. . . . . . . . . Hiroto destroyed, Hiraga left with 12/10

Lasted 1 more round before Hiroto is destroyed and deal 8 dmg to opposing base.
(required 2 more rounds before Hiraga is destroyed)


So... to say, Hiraga outmatches Hiroto no matter how you start out the battle.

The only way for Hiroto to win is if there are other ships or using heals on Hiroto. (but that's not keeping heals using on Hiraga either)

Main thing is, Hiroto as said, more fitted if there are already other ships out on the field, else it is weaker than Hiraga.

Also, if you're using Solar Storm... you should have War Deployment anyways, way less cost and it too enable your ships, only thing is you don't get an extra ship (but if you have Hiraga, you can still place it down than use War Deployment too anyways)
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby Ginger88895 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:54 am

When i see a hiraga, i'll just lost mine that beast. Hiraga can deal whooping 19 damage to opposing ship, and unless that ship has TONS of defense and TONS of attack, it'll be severely injured (or just being *BOOM*-ed)

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-no, it's cheat engine.
-0mg pwned xD
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Re: Notes about the second human battleship

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:26 pm

I find that I use Hiroto in tandem with Hiraga, small ships, and plenty of heals.

It'll be a situation where I'll have, for an example, a single Akata keeping a Nagato, a Firewing, and two of three Delta Fighters alive, with a Troy replacing a fighter every time it gets killed.

Eventually, I notice that the Akata and all five fighters are about to die. Since I'm playing humans, I have way too much energy and can afford multiple battleships; since the situation is hypothetical, let's give it something crazy, like 99+ energy. I have four Hiragas and a Hiroto ready to deploy, and the fighters are about to die on the same turn.

I don't think I need to describe the situation any further, because what happens next is probably self-explanatory: A quintuple battleship smackdown that the AI most likely has no defense against. I know I would hate it if this happened to me.
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