War Heroes

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Wv_Hawk_vW
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:19 am

It can't hold both phoenix's ability and the hydra ability simultaneously.

If course, I don't need two races to gross 200 total attack on my side of the battlefield. Heck, I can probably discard the entropic channeler altogether, along with the entropic link, in favor of something lighter, though this is yet to be tested.
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Grem
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Grem » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:49 pm

I'm yet to encounter situation where entropic link can be more useful than, say, reliquary.
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Ken Ddoox
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Ken Ddoox » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:15 pm

I hardly see any use for that card personally. But why did you have to include reliquary in? It's good when you play AR, giving bonus stats to the ships and all.
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Grem
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Grem » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:04 pm

If you compare entropic link (1mt+1 random on launch) vs reliquay (1mt as free action +2 random) you would see, that there is almost no point in using entropic link.
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Ken Ddoox
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Ken Ddoox » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:29 am

I know! What a shame I actually like the artwork on that one :P
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Re: War Heroes

Postby space-mariner51 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:42 am

Grem wrote:I'm yet to encounter situation where entropic link can be more useful than, say, reliquary.


Try playing reliquary with a pure MT deck (No AR stuff). Entropic Link at least gives :mt: for sure. :rl: may not be :mt: .
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Grem
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Grem » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:32 am

Free action - MT energy?

space-mariner51 wrote:
Grem wrote:I'm yet to encounter situation where entropic link can be more useful than, say, reliquary.


Try playing reliquary with a pure MT deck (No AR stuff). Entropic Link at least gives :mt: for sure. :rl: may not be :mt: .

So, you use leech hive? Spend 1 energy, get 1 counter = net gain 1 AR. LOL
Last edited by Grem on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Ddoox
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Ken Ddoox » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:44 am

Grem wrote:Free action - MT energy?


Totally. I know it's for balance and all, but the only reason I limit reliquary on decks is because it doesn't add HP like science lab. Such a shame.
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Ken Ddoox
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Ken Ddoox » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:16 am

This is sad, RD 1647 vs CC 2.
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Grem
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Grem » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:47 am

Ken Ddoox wrote:Totally. I know it's for balance and all, but the only reason I limit reliquary on decks is because it doesn't add HP like science lab. Such a shame.

If I ever feel the need of hp, I add AR titan shield and repair actions. This is on top of possible 4 RV and XY draw/hp.
Once I finished with 650 hp Titan base since 70 starting or so. (reverse knowledge)
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Ken Ddoox
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Ken Ddoox » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:35 am

Yeah, I think there is a lot to learn from you guys lol.
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space-mariner51
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Re: War Heroes

Postby space-mariner51 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:48 am

Ken Ddoox wrote:This is sad, RD 1647 vs CC 2.


Any idea who got 2 points for CC?

Grem wrote:Free action - MT energy?

space-mariner51 wrote:
Grem wrote:I'm yet to encounter situation where entropic link can be more useful than, say, reliquary.


Try playing reliquary with a pure MT deck (No AR stuff). Entropic Link at least gives :mt: for sure. :rl: may not be :mt: .

So, you use leech hive? Spend 1 energy, get 1 counter = net gain 1 AR. LOL


Leech Hive doesn't work like that. (too much spectrum?) It only gains energy if the opponent has less than you do (and that doesn't usually happen unless you make it so) and it's :mt: , not :rl: .

And what do you think of buffing Entropic Link to it's old self, when you gain 2 energy when anything is played?
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Ken Ddoox
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Ken Ddoox » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:16 pm

That would sound great. The RV has a salvage yard that generate energy whenever anything is destroyed, should be relevant to have something that does the opposite, generate energy whenever anything is played.
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Grem
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Grem » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:37 pm

space-mariner51 wrote:Leech Hive doesn't work like that. (too much spectrum?) It only gains energy if the opponent has less than you do (and that doesn't usually happen unless you make it so) and it's :mt: , not :rl: .

And what do you think of buffing Entropic Link to it's old self, when you gain 2 energy when anything is played?

My thoughts were: you get benefit from Entropic link only IF you have carrier(and, say, abOMNOMination). MT carrier - leech hive. One leech costs 1 energy. So, with 1 entropic link and 1 leech hive, basically, you get only 1 AR and free leech.
With AR carrier this is slightly better, because it launches free ship.
Still, 2 energy is pretty weak.
Can't suggest buff from top of my head.
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FrancoK
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Re: War Heroes

Postby FrancoK » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:29 pm

RD 2400+ Vs CC 2.

Maybe some read the statistics and saw CC rarely wins. ::)

The 2 CC point were made when the RD was 300 or so Vs 0. Corageous or foolish?
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:42 pm

Grem wrote:I'm yet to encounter situation where entropic link can be more useful than, say, reliquary.



Lost carrier.

Lost fighter costs 0 and activates the link, for what is essentially a free 1 :mt: 1 :rl:

Abomination.

Lost fighter self-destructs. Eat the lost fighter for a free 4 regen and +4 attack.

Double link.

Entropic link is powerful by itself, but with 2 links, many of the ships that would normally be free now have negative cost.

Leech Hive.

If you take out all your links, this has the seeming downside that your energy generation is essentially the same as if you replaced your links with obscure megaliths. However, if all your energy is inside of the links, the leeches will activate-- 8 points in link 1, 9 points in link 2, and 10 points in link 2. That's 54 energy, plus the 1 you naturally get is 55 energy. Your opponent has 55 energy, but it's not in links. Leeches can activate because you have less energy than your opponent.

Entropic Channeler.

One of the most energy-efficient energy sinks in the game, you gain 2 attack for every 1 energy you lose, unlike most sinks which give you 1 or 2 attack for every 4 or 6 energy spent, and need several turns to get up to entropic channeler's level. Use it to keep energy levels low so your leeches constantly activate!

Entromorph

The MT, unlike most races, have two energy sinks, and one of them is their cheapest, most effective card. You can use this at all times and it's still a decent card. Throw in the energy sink later on, and entromorph keeps getting stronger while your leeches keep generating energy.

Entropic Engineer

The CIP of this is essentially a free Energy Warp, so your enemy basically ends up with a lot of useless energy. Even if he finds a way to use it, you've slowed him down and forced him to keep energy around that can allow your leeches to trigger. Now here's where the engineer gets useful at: it only costs 4 energy, and it generates free energy. In addition, at just 4 energy, it is one of your cheapest blockers, and has more defense than most of your cheaper blockers. Abomination has the same price, but it's got less attack and defense and can't grow without another ship that costs 8 energy. Entromorph and Energy Leech have less defense and leech has equal attack. Shifting Morph, Abomnom, and Channeler have greater cost.

Space Warp

Ah, the king of all leave-your-opponent-completely-screwed action-cards. In addition to letting you attack twice like Relentless Assault, it also leaves your opponent defenseless to replace any lost defenses like technomancers' EMP, gives you an extra card draw, and it gives you the opportunity to boost your ships' attack as well as, if you're losing against large enough ships, the opportunity to take less damage through the lose 12 hp effect, than you would if you hadn't used it. The downside is that it disrupts the cycle of opponent-kills-my-ship-use-lost-carriers'-effect, but this downside is so minor it's easily glossed over by the other effects. Another downside is that it has a HUGE price, so it adds to the weight of your deck. I personally do not keep it in any of my MT decks.



I don't think we need to buff the entropic link to generate 2 energy per turn. If anything, that would actually reduce the ability of the generic MT deck to splash cards. One of the most powerful combinations I can think of is to do this.

1: build a very high-attack ship. Say, have it at 50 attack.
2: put down an abomination. Even if the monster is already an abomination, you need a second one. This step is optional under certain conditions.
3: use the humans' sneak attack ( 3 :hu: disable your ship to attack the opposing base directly, damaging it for that ship's attack) on the high-attack ship. If your ship has more attack than the opponent has hitpoints, step 2 is un-necessary.
4: have the abomnom swallow the monster ship so that the attack is still useful.

If you're against an annoying citadel-esque deck that literally has a replacement for each and every ship you smash, you can use this trick to place them more on the defensive than before. If you do it right, this is basically a way to instantly win the game.

Another use for the splashing is to increase the MT longetivity. the XY have sparks and a rogue diver; the CA have Reverse Knowledge; the RD have Rift Battery; the TM have data echo, EM pulse, ethereal fighter, and echo image. Those are simply the most obvious of splashes. If you avoid overusing splashing and you use entropic link as it is right now, you don't even need a special structure to splash.
My skype is helix.cipher if anyone decides they want to contact me or do a sci-fi RP or something.

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Grem
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Grem » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:14 am

tl & wouldn't quote.
Entropic link definitely can be used, but
"sink energy into entropic channeller each turn, so your leeches can generate energy". what the point? Lose half your energy to generate 6 more at max?
"you don't even need a special structure to splash" carrier/carrier building? You need to have more than 50 (6 CA, 1/8 chance, 6*8=48) counters for reliable cast of reverse knowledge. 50 ship launches? 50 turns? Isn't this a bit tedious and boring? You can get this in 6 turns with reliquary.

I don't see feeding abomination as effective MT strategy. It was good in older version, when abomination could increase defence.

For example, if opponent have full field - Hydramorph + Mutation = 7*7 = 49 damage to opponent's ships for 2 energy. Copy this with Shifting morph - 8(hydra+mutate)*7(fields)-1(initial damage to 1 blocker) = another 55 damage for 2 energy.
Copy abomination with SM, eat, return to deck with amiaru, launch another SM - double damage each turn for 2+2+4+1 energy. after 3 turns this would be 8*X damage for 27 energy, 16*x for 36. This outscales even imba ability "attack = energy stock"
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Re: War Heroes

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:02 am

I've found that for my tactic, Hydramorph is a rather weak utility to use, as is any action.

In addition, if I'm feeding the abomination, it can very quickly grow so large that the opponent has to constantly replace the blocker in front of my abomination.

I'll admit, what I said about splashing is only half-true; it's unreliable for cards that cost more than 3 energy, but it still allows me to splash small cards, like the spark.

Grem wrote:"sink energy into entropic channeller each turn, so your leeches can generate energy". what the point? Lose half your energy to generate 6 more at max?



I didn't say to do it every turn, but if you have to do it every turn you're not doing it right anyway.

Generally, when I'm using the entropic channeler, I use it in tandem with Entropic Links and structures that give me enough energy generation that I have what I need, and no more. I wait until I have around 20 counters stored up and then I use them all, then on that same turn I'll use the entropic channeler's actis to immediately drain that energy.


I don't have all level 4 cards yet, but try this deck. g000a7T847_7X858J8N8FcE8M It's basically the optimum deck you can have for what I'm talking about.
My skype is helix.cipher if anyone decides they want to contact me or do a sci-fi RP or something.

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Re: War Heroes

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:53 pm

Grem wrote:For example, if opponent have full field - Hydramorph + Mutation = 7*7 = 49 damage to opponent's ships for 2 energy. Copy this with Shifting morph - 8(hydra+mutate)*7(fields)-1(initial damage to 1 blocker) = another 55 damage for 2 energy.
Copy abomination with SM, eat, return to deck with amiaru, launch another SM - double damage each turn for 2+2+4+1 energy. after 3 turns this would be 8*X damage for 27 energy, 16*x for 36. This outscales even imba ability "attack = energy stock"


There is a very easy way to reduce the effectiveness of your suggested strategy, and I discovered this while testing your strategy against the CPU.

Greater Nebula Demon, Nanobot Carrier, growth spire, support spire, and to a lesser extent, tarogi; ship regeneration field, resistance shield, retalliation field, shipboost. Also, Hiraga, Breaker, Deflector Field, and those are just humans; Mirror Shield is equally effective, and any disabling ability is very effective.

GND And the other omni-healing cards may counter the hydra effect, but they are countered by abominations and other high-attack ships. Whereas a hydra's attack is dealt to each individual ship and then countered by healing of each individual ship, the abomination only attacks one ship at a time. This allows the abomination to have its attack power only minimally nullified. If you do it the right way, you can destroy the source of the omni-healing, unless it's an effect on the battlefield, but even then, your abomination will still grow large enough that the healing isn't able to save the opponent.

Something similar happens with retalliation. If your opponent is spamming retalliation-based ships, you have to deal with not one, not two, but up to seven ships damaging your hydramorph in one attack. If you're using an abomination, then at worst case scenario, your opponent will be spamming target-damage ships, but even then, you have the opportunity to simply throw your abomination's attack around before you lose it, using other abominations and shifting morphs. Most target-damage ships are weak anyway, and if their defense isn't so low that they count as fragile, you probably have worse things to deal with than just the target-damage.

In any situation where you have large ships, instant-kill cards may seem like foul play, but they are still a counter. I've found that economically, it costs 8 to use a lost mine, but the energy consumed by the abomination tends to be less than the energy generated-- the person playing the lost mine loses more energy than the one who played the abomination, and that's assuming that the abomination is the only ship he needs to lost mine.

Now lets get even cheaper and even more foul. Use spark. If it's any ship that isn't shifting morph, you have two possible options. Option 1 is to simply let the ship in front of the spark die; generally, if you've got a ship large enough to justify an instant-kill card like spark, you're probably enough in the lead that you can afford to let it die. Option 2 is to simply have another abomination devour the ship, or have a shifting morph copy the ship. Both situations lose the giant ship, but you were going to lose it anyway, and if you have a lost carrier, that spark is dead.

Perhaps Spark is simply not enough; perhaps we need to use an instant-kill card that is neither lost mine nor does it give the opponent time to react. Enter the rivi'i card, Ambush. It only costs 3 and it kills the target. Unfortunately, it, too, has a price. If you're desperate enough to use it, unlike with the MT, you can't afford to disable even one of your ships, let alone all of them, and using this card disables all of your ships. This severely slows you down. Needless to say, this makes it rather worthless.

In all of these proposed methods of instantly killing the abomination, the victim of the insta-kill loses at most one card: the abomination. Even considering effects such as the one where the abomination eats a ship in front of a spark, the player has effectively lost that card anyway, so bombing the abomnom isn't making the victim lose more cards. Now take into consideration when I bomb one of your hydramorphs. In addition to losing the hydramorph, you lose every mutation you placed into that hydramorph-- at minimum, 2 cards have been lost for one lost mine. This isn't even taking into consideration the enormous fragility of a hydramorph slapped by the defense-crippling method that is Mutation; against the humans and the CC, a simply rush deck would annihilate the hydramorph, and against the TM and the RD, you've got ships whose regeneration is so high it nullifies the damage dealt by the hydramorph, that immediately use attack equally high to blast the hydramorph into oblivion.

Shifting Morph has its downsides, too, if you fail to level it to 4. Every time you have to copy a ship, you disable the shifting morph for one turn, long enough for the opponent to react. Given the fragility of the hydramorph, that ship isn't a threat; the only major threat is the SM. The most obvious counters are spark and Scanner Ghost, and the next most obvious are retalliation ships. Any ship that attacks on deploy, such as nagato and soldier drone, is definitely going to cause you trouble. For the abomination deck, I'll admit, rush also gives me trouble; but I have better ability to adapt to this without modifying my deck than the hydra deck does.
My skype is helix.cipher if anyone decides they want to contact me or do a sci-fi RP or something.

I am a blast from the past who is rising from the ashes like a phoenix!

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joacobanfield
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Re: War Heroes

Postby joacobanfield » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:12 pm

OK, we will beat the max war score record
RD 3198 vs. CC 2
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