Statistics Tracking

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Kuro
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Kuro » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:18 pm

Thunder Shard is not good enough for pvp. It is too slow, and you face ships with 10+ attack too often.

I even stopped to use it in pve for technowall decks, because technoscan proved to be sufficient.
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PenneyRZ
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby PenneyRZ » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:32 pm

I suppose Terror Mage is the new Thunder Shard, ensuring things don't die to Sparks.

It still feels somehow wrong.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Chyriax » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:35 pm

this goes back to the forum i started, the new Terror Mage is even obsoleting the thunder shard.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Kuro » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:02 pm

No, Thunder Shard was obsolete before the new Mage. You cannot include it in your deck only against sparks and scanners, yet this is mostly the only cases where it will be really useful (which makes it really worse than a Railgun Turret). Other XU structures like Nebula Spire and Crystal Tree are strictly better, because they do not depend on the presence of targetable enemy ships on board and have more effect overall.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby PenneyRZ » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:57 pm

It seems kinda interesting to me that Spark would clearly be one of the played more often than the worst 100 cards combined and people would rather just play through it than using any sort of way to counter it, even though it can potentially kill a 12 coster for 1 energy.

I suppose it is played so often because it is nigh impossible to counter in the current metagame.

Assuming people weren't using Lost Mine on them, the next most played card that can even fairly efficiently remove it is Firewing which is like the 100th most played card. Fifteen cards or so down the list at Nebula Rift is the first card that can kill it without losing one's own card in the process.

That doesn't really seem to be "working as intended" from a game design point of view.

Nothing that counters it is good enough to actually see play even if the colors are heavily used.

Maybe the counters to cheap threats like that need to be upgraded somehow.
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Kuro
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Kuro » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:04 pm

Most of the time Sparks are countered (if they even are) in an inefficient way, like using a more expensive kill card or sacrificing another (more costly) unit. But I think this is at least a bit balanced by the fact than sparks are indirect ship killers : they have to be damaged to do their job. Therefore they cannot be used to make way for one of your ship, and can easily be "avoided" in a more or less efficient way, by sacrificing another ship than the intended target or sacrificing the intended target (with abomination or other).

Some (average) competitive decks do play efficient counters though, like artillery or railgun turret, and now terror mage.
Last edited by Kuro on Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby PenneyRZ » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:16 pm

I mean to say that there should be an efficient way to counter things that fall in the top 10 most used cards in the game.

The fact that the closest hard counter is the 100th or so most played card with 369 plays (vs 1928 sparks, 6x more) seems kinda sad from a game design point of view.

Ideally, all of the cards that are most frequently used would have some sort of counter that is both playable and efficient.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Greywing » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:24 pm

It's also up to the players to identify the proper anti spark card. Spark has been whined about a fair bit since HD1 about it being supposedly overpowered. That tells me people aren't always figuring out counter cards or don't want to remove certain cards from their decks to add in a little protection.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Williegb » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:49 pm

I find it unlikely that Spark is overpowered. It's only as powerful as the card it kills. It doesn't provide a threat or acceleration, only tempo by forcing your opponent to make inefficient one for one trades. If there is no ship in the opposing spot, its worse than a Flare Spire, and takes up a lane to boot. Yes, its a very efficient answer, but its also one of the few answers that can be answered in turn, making it inherently more interactive then something like Lost Mine. I actually think Spark is one of the more interesting and balanced cards in the game.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Greywing » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:53 pm

It isn't overpowered, but it's easily mistaken for being so if the counters to it aren't recognized. I just remember it as the card that's been most whined about since HD 1 :p
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby PenneyRZ » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:55 pm

Well, I am not going to accuse someone like Kuro of being too lazy to find a counter.

I don't think it can't be countered, because it very much can, but it appears that it can't be cost-effectively countered.

If it could be cost-effectively countered, I am sure it would be.

A lot of it could be that the most efficient way to counter it would be just losing your ships to it, but I would like to think that other ways were both playable and efficient.

It doesn't seem like that is usually the case.

Most of the people that were whining about spark being overpowered probably also wanted to see it nerfed. I would rather just see 2 or 3 cards that are good against it having their costs lowered slightly.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Chyriax » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:03 am

:o how the heck are you supposed to nerf a 1/1. its easy to counter as long as you have anything at all that can direct damage. if it means losing a thogrom bomber to save the neyon-moru, or reshuffling the phoenix to save that chaingunned hiraga, it can still be done. a shard tree, nebula rift, or flak turret could easily take it randomly, or any directed damage structure would work. theres probably many more counters to minimise losses there.
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Kuro
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Kuro » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am

Chyriax wrote::o how the heck are you supposed to nerf a 1/1.

It's not a 1/1, but a [Spark • 1 :xy: • 1/1 • when dealt damage by a ship, destroy this ship].

You can nerf its attack to 0, or its def to 0 (but then it dies right away I guess), or increase its cost to 20 :xy: , or change its ability to "you lose the game when you draw this card", or change its name to something less cool, for example "Justin Bieber".

Many options !

[edit] I forgot its cost, and other stuff maybe :p
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby space-mariner51 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:32 am

The real problem isn't Spark as is, but Spark after some XY buffing. Spark+Crystal Aura=Spark will live through a Nubular Rift and a Shard Tree, and a weak-attack ship. Keep buffing and the Spark will live through everything. The AI in one game had a Spark and a Chyriax in play. After some spamming of Chyriax, Spark had 11 defense. Try to get rid of it without losing multiple ships to it.

You think, "Cloak Spark. It can't get buffed now." It will be equally hard to get rid of it without losing the opposing ship.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Chyriax » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:51 am

lol, it would be funny to see spark cloaked. then you have a lost mine for 1 :xy:. realistically though, as is, its a pretty balanced card. yes, its the cheapest instakill, but it can be avoided or redirected with some thought and luck.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby PenneyRZ » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:01 am

We are getting off topic.

Nobody ever claimed spark couldn't be stopped by anything.

Every card has a series of more or less visible costs, including but not limited to: 1) Energy requirement, 2) Opportunity cost for not using something else instead, 3) slowness, 4) ease of countering.

What was said was that all of those (and more) costs for Spark total up to much less than the average costs of cards that counter Spark.

The simplest way to say this is that the counters are not cost-effective.

It doesn't help to have a card that says "Remove all Spark cards from the opponent's deck" if it also says "You lose the game" on it.

That is, Nebula Rift is a great counter for opposing Spark cards, but it isn't so great in that it doesn't kill very many other things, giving it an extremely narrow purpose.

Cards that are extremely narrow tend not to get played very often unless they are extremely good. Shard Tree isn't really that sort of card.
Last edited by PenneyRZ on Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:37 am

How about this: spark+fortify. pretty much guarentees a death of at least 90% of all ships for just1 :ca: 1 :xy: and the other 10% are either unblockable or saved by an instakill. perhaps i should build a deck around this? ive gone down to 30 cards.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby PenneyRZ » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:16 pm

Spark + Lost Mine pretty much guarantees a death for 2 ships. This is better than Spark + Fortify guaranteeing a death of 1 ship for the same amount of cards used.

That is why people don't play Spark + Fortify, instead playing Spark + Lost Mine.

- Edit - I wanted to point out that if you only have 1 card out of the combo, the worse of the two in the Spark + Lost Mine combo is still likely to kill a ship. The worst part of the Spark + Fortify combo is extremely unlikely to kill any enemy ships by itself. Spark + Lost Mine is better both in combo and not in combo. That also has to do with that combo being played and not the other.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby space-mariner51 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:33 am

space-mariner51 wrote:The real problem isn't Spark as is, but Spark after some XY buffing. Spark+Crystal Aura=Spark will live through a Nubular Rift and a Shard Tree, and a weak-attack ship. Keep buffing and the Spark will live through everything.


Done the combo in a game. Destroyed a Greater Grav Demon and a Rift Demon.

PenneyRZ wrote:Spark + Lost Mine pretty much guarantees a death for 2 ships. This is better than Spark + Fortify guaranteeing a death of 1 ship for the same amount of cards used.


What did that go up against, an Ultranought? In fact, it might destroy 3 ships, if your opponents put weak ships against it. That's missue of Spark here. Plus, it's way cheaper than a lost mine.
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Re: Statistics Tracking

Postby PenneyRZ » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:27 am

Ok so lets pretend that I am playing a gold deck without any Nebula Rifts and I didn't draw any Demonic Rifts so I put out a Greater Techno Demon which makes up for itself right away since you don't draw next turn. Then you lay out a Spark and cast Fortify on it.

I have a couple choices here, I can just attack into it and let my guy die. If I do, then it would be pretty stupid of me to put another ship in front of it. Instead I might as well just let you hit me for 1 for the rest of the game, at least until I can get out a Demonic Rift and use a Rift Spark to kill it the rest of the way. So your 2 cards probably only costed me 1. If you didn't have a denial protection land then your 3 cards would have only costed me 1 card and a few life.

Perhaps I am instead using Brown and Siege Cruisers. The same combo would again cause me to lose 1 card and a few life whereas you still lost 2 cards.

If I had drawn way too many ships and it was worth it for me to waste them killing the 1/11 spark, it would still probably only cause me to lose 2 ships which is no worse than the 2 cards you spent to cause me to lose those 2 ships. It is also possible I have a Lost Mine laying around and I kill 2 of your cards with 1 of mine that way.

So Spark + Fortify is maybe 2 ships OR maybe 1 ship and a couple life points
vs
Spark + Lost Mine which is almost always 2 ships no matter how you slice it.

There are about 100 cards that are more commonly played in PVP than the first thing that can efficiently kill a spark, so losing it to a Nebula Rift or something isn't the most likely thing in the world as it is currently. That being something that may protect people from losing 2 cards against my 2 cards. The chances of your combo only taking down 1 card is much more than the chances of my suggestion only taking down 1 card.

In any event, the idea is to maximize how many cards of the enemy's you kill with each one of yours and Fortify just doesn't really accomplish that most of the time.
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