Card Requests

Talk about anything regarding the Hidden Dimensions core game and HD Spectrum.
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Chyriax
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Chyriax » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:30 pm

ahh, but thats dual race, so isn't pure XY. i can tollerate that, since it is in a race that haste is prevalant in.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:55 am

I believe greywing said he was going to create a third human destroyer somewhere way back there, however I can't remember when. I'm assuming that sinse breaker is attack and pulsar is defence, then gauntlet class, as I shall name it, is somewhere in between.

Gauntlet Class
10/30
6 :hu: 1 :rl:
Haste
1 :hu: : this ship becomes cloaked and gains 3 retalliate for 1 turn, this ship does not attack this turn.

I know its probably a little bit overpowered, but i'm just reminding everyone that greywing promised a human destroyer #3 and we haven't gotten one yet. hopefully, this will be like the xyloxis' amethyst xyloxi.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby space-mariner51 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:11 am

Uhh, the gauntlet is more offense than the Breaker. If this idea happens, breaker should get more defense, and Gauntler lose some defense. The activatable ability itself is too OP, and also, off of it's goal. So Gauntlet is stuck between 2 types of strategy w/out anything in between.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:59 am

its got 10 attack, which is equal to the breaker's offensive power against the opposing ship (8 attack+2 retalliate=10 damage per turn) and while it has 2 more defence than the pulsar, it doesnt have the 2 resist. assuming that you had a card that hit the target ship for X, X=its defence, then pulsar would survive with 2 defence left; gauntlet wouldn't. besides, you cant retalliate (which in a way is defencive) unless your ship cloaks, which disables its 10 attack! it doesn't have more attack power than breaker.

Now, insofar as there not being anything in between, it doesnt have as much attack power (though more attack) as breaker or as much defence power (though more defence) as pulsar, and it can still switch between the two modes. it IS in between them.
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PenneyRZ
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:32 am

I am a little lost here.

Why does red need another ship of this approximate size?

If it does need one, why doesn't anyone know about it?

Why should this ship, if there is to be one, be compared in any way shape or form to Amethyst Xyloxi?

How would a 3rd ship of this relative strength be in any way equal to a first ship of that relative strength?

I am not opposed to making another ship of this class, but it shouldn't be made just to make one. It should have a purpose and be good at addressing that purpose.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Greywing » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:26 am

I think i mentioned that 3rd destroyed when i changed the name of the Breaker to Breaker class and added the Pulsar class. But at that point (and still is) it's just one of the many entries from my card ideas file.

'Crusher class' destroyer with low defense (around 18). Acti ability : instead of attacking, destroys the ship in front of it and loses 8 HP.

I might add it (or something similar) to the HD:X alpha together with a bunch of other cards, to see how (if) it fits in.
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Chyriax
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Chyriax » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:01 pm

crusher class: see: guardian akata. result: two words, PLEASE NO! it doesn't matter how much life you attach as a cost, guardian akata makes it repeatable as an instakill, something we really want to avoid.

gauntlet: 10 attack hasted is a rush fanatics wet dream. we already have enough idiots trying HU rush, lets not give them the #1 required rush card ever in the same color. adding a defencive ability to it just means that they can cloak it when they think something is about to go wrong (play the third, feel like a chain reaction is about to hit, or feel like a techno quasar is coming)

heres my idea for the next big human ship
fill in the blank name
6-7 :hu: 2 :rl: (hopefully enough to pay for the abilities)
7-8 attack/ 25 life (8 attack might be too strong, but im thinking this ship should be able to hold its own in the big ship circles)
2 damage resist
3-5 :hu: 2-3 mass regen
its meant to be an excedingly strong support ship, enough attack to take down most enemies, damage resist to help out with that, and then paid mass regen as the big function. it really helps the HU habit of clogging the board, giving a ship that doesn't need to sacrifice much attack power for the ability to heal things, as akata and tarogi do. at 2 mass regen, 3 energy is a good cost, while 3 mass regen takes 4 or 5 energy to pay for. as the ship is big enough to hold its own(essentially a slightly stronger pulsar) it won't be like akata or tarogi, where one just needs to put out a fairly strong ship to kill it, but the mass heal will fill that same role as akata and tarogi, though not targetable or truly viable as a means to help only one ship out.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:47 pm

Chryiax's ability costs 3 to "heal" everything for 1. Sure its slightly better than a heal for 1 since it is an increase in defense, but is that better than a heal for 2? I don't think so.

I would certainly make the ability worse than Chryiax's ability since this is a plain ship and Chryiax is its color's legend..

Also, the idea isn't to just completely obsolete Tarogi and Akata. If you make a healing ability that is too good, then those cards won't be worth playing anymore. We should not add 1 new card and effectively remove 2 cards from the pool. That is just a net reduction of 1 in playable cards.

In particular, Tarogi is hard to justify as it is, and it wouldn't take something huge to obsolete it. It does a lot of healing, but 1/15 is just really weak. You give a similar level of healing to something with huge offense and much better defense, and you might as well kiss Tarogi goodbye.

If you are going to give this ship a heal, it needs to be small, like this:

6 Red 1 Random
6/26
R : Heal target ship for 2.

Now it can't even attempt to replace the heal power of the two cheaper cards and it has less life than Akata so its a slightly worse blocker than that too. It can at least contribute, though.
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dark1n
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Re: Card Requests

Postby dark1n » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:25 am

i don't mind a third healer for humans (not that we need one), but let's have it function differently from akata and tarogi:
name/cost/stats: (left to gw)
passive ability: repairs neighbouring ships for 2hp each turn. (maybe even 3?)


crusher: 3+ instant kills? no thank you.

gauntlet: haste and cloaking should be limited to small ships (and big RD). but the idea of a ship that can turtle-up is interesting. i'd give it a few resistance points (for 1 turn, of course) and a few hp regenerated...
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:44 am

I am not a big fan of cards that double as either really awesome offense or really awesome defense. Especially if they come with a really cheap cost as part of the deal.

Crusher - Glad I don't have to even bother with talking about this one since everyone seems to be up to speed on repeatable ship kill by now.

Repair neighboring ships for 2hp per turn... Might as well not have any ability if you are going to give a ship that ability. Not saying it is on the same level of bad as making the teal 2 energy land have CIP random disable, but its down there.
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Bluewing
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Bluewing » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:39 am

If the Crusher Class's ability was changed to deal (somewhere between) 8-16 damage to the ship in front of it and lose 8 hp it might be ok, but I do agree with the others that it should not be a repeatable instantkill ship.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby idea bulb » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:41 am

But this Crusher Class, if unrepaired would only last three turns and red isn't known for their healers besides the umm, starts with an A.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby DEEP SPACE » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:11 am

I readed the Akata info on 4th Moon page, and it says that Akata is the logistic version of the HU cruisers.

What happened with the others?
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Greywing » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:26 am

For the 4th moon story there used to be several akatas. Siege akata with a single long range gun. And a normal battlecruiser.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Chyriax » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:05 pm

@penney: little late getting here, but better late than never.

concerning the comparison to the chyriax card: i find lifegain and repair to be very separate things entirely on ships, and even on the base. repair has a cap, and lifegain raises that cap. speaking in-color, chyriax's one lifegain effect is enough to pay for up to +4/+4 from saphires, spread as needed, 16 heal from emeralds as needed, or make relic fighters(not all that out of color, since its the best card ever for holding buffs and a color made for buffing) or amethysts even harder to kill. concerning the former, healing won't help any at all, but lifegain does. the latter, the lifegain makes a further bulwark that can be repaired by self regen, without worry about the life cap. i made a card that i would consider strictly worse than greater neb demon, and slightly better than nanobot carrier. both of these are free, automatic mass regen, which by your comparison makes them much better than chyriax. for sure, i would *LOVE* to see that lifegain become free and automatic, but i think we can all agree that this would be very OP, just needing to be dumped in a deck full of emeralds, relic fighters, and amethysts to show how evil lifegain gets when done en-masse for free. one relic fighter would easily be in its twenties without any other aid at all, and without any care for getting it this far.

concerning akata and tarogi: you make a great argument there. akata would easily stay around with this, its hard to beat 5 targeted heal for 1 energy, even with mass heal. particularly with mass heal, since you can't direct it where needed unless you have a lot of it. tarogi i believe would still have a place, using the 1 mass regen to synergize with the higher mass heal this ship would provide, giving more heal from a cheaper ship, without needing to pay for it and making somewhat higher deck reliability. somewhat on a tangent, but slightly relevant, i feel that tarogi should get a buff. can we at least make the poor thing a 2/25? then it would have a *chance* of survival.

on to the other cards discussed

concerning crusher: i think we can close the book on it. it seems to be a unanimous agreement that with guardian akata its easily a repeatable instakill, and that this is one thing this game does not need.

gauntlet: its a nice idea having a ship that can double up actually, more versatile. it shouldn't be overwhelming at both though, and it certainly should be more defencive in nature than offencive to begin with. 10 attack is too much for something this versatile, and haste is waaay too far, particularly for 10 attack.

seige akata: i think i like this one, so i will try(key word here) to make some kind of card around it. hope it works out to be fair and balanced, but the premises kinda work with other HU tactics too well possibly.

6 :hu:
4/30(same as normal)
heals a random ship for 3 (keeps akata's heal, but less effective since there is a long range gun taking up space and crew)
1 :hu: 3 damage on a ship (maybe base. this is the big gun working)

it synergizes exceptionally well (maybe too well) with 2 main HU tactics, being to keep ships alive on your side, and to target strike enemy ships until they die. put these together with artillery turret and hiraga, you get a nice flak wall keeping enemy ships out. put it with more akatas/tarogi, you get a nice healing wall to keep your ships in. put it with more of itself, art turrets, and akata/tarogi, you get both.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:26 pm

how about 8 attack and we give it a CIP to damage the opposing 3 ships for 3, instead of haste?
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:09 pm

Wv_Hawk_vW - You could just quit trying to make overpowered cards too. That would also work.

Chryiax - The attack matters on the red ship. It doesn't matter if Tarogi and Akata can heal more, if the updated ship places more beatdown then it will be superior. Being better at killing opposing ships makes up for healing for a small amount more life.

Yes Chryiax's ability is weaker than that of Nanobot Carrier, but nobody in their right mind would call the Chryiax the weaker of the two cards. It matters that Chryiax has 6x the attack power. That completely makes up for the fact that the Nanobot Carrier has a better and completely free ability.

Between Chryiax and Greater Nebula things are a little less clear. The Greater Nebula's heal is significantly more powerful, but the Chryiax still does 1.5x the damage. I would say they are about even for the most part, and that it shows how powerful a healing effect needs to be to be able to balance out + 4 damage.

I have had my share of blue playing time as well as gold playing time and I can say pretty confidently that Chryiax is a lot more powerful when it comes to beat down. Greater Nebula is almost always a defensive play like Nanobot Carrier is. Chryiax is almost always an offensive one, just like the other blue assault ships.

Also, it matters that the new card is potentially going into a color that already has a heavy healing theme to begin with. Damage in vs dmg out totals are of the utmost importance in determining the winner of a 7 slot vs 7 slot engagement. A few Akatas are devastating on a full board because they have the potential to remove like half of all the damage the opponent is doing. A single vulture can be similarly devastating and it - stacks - with the Akatas.

The new card would potentially stack with both Akatas and Vultures.

As a player of blue, you should be pretty familiar with the concept of removing the opponent's offensive potential completely. Things like Thunder Shard and Nebula Spire are designed to do exactly that.

The red card would have the same sort of mitigation effect. As a blocker, it would remove a lot of the opponent's damage to the base, as a healer it would remove damage to other ships on the team, and as a ship with a lot of offensive power it would remove the opponent's ships directly from play.

The stacking of damage mitigation abilities is particularly strong. If your team is healing for 10 per turn and their team is attacking for 20 per turn, the following happens as you add an incremental 2 healing to your own team each turn.

10 vs 20, changes to 12 vs 20 - Opponent is dealing 20% less damage now
12 vs 20, changes to 14 vs 20 - Opponent is dealing 25% less damage now
14 vs 20, changes to 16 vs 20 - Opponent is dealing 33% less damage now
16 vs 20, changes to 18 vs 20 - Opponent is dealing 50% less damage now
18 vs 20, changes to 20 vs 20 - Opponent is dealing 100% less damage now

Adding the same amount of healing per turn makes a bigger and bigger impact on the percentage of their original damage they are able to continue dealing.

Many both gold and blue decks, at their cores, are focused on this aspect of mitigation of percentages of the opponent's damage pretty much equally in different ways. Gold just wants to heal more and blue wants to reduce the damage of the attacking ships.

This red ship is potentially encroaching upon the gold space, and that is at a time when red already has a number of significant advantages over gold. More energy, faster attacks, more battlefield control, more targeted damage, hugely more damaging ships for the same cost, and so on.

I, personally, don't think that red needs to be more like gold. If anything gold needs to be more like gold. Gold is supposed to have the ability to play well with other colors and it only really does that with one other color, teal. Blue is a distant second, and there are no thirds or above. It has been clear since day 1 of HD1 that gold has lands for every color combination and that has clearly never gone anywhere except in 1 and recently a 2nd case.

But I digress.

The colors have niches and they don't need to go around trying to surpass the niche of other colors in every way that matters.

Red is supposed to be good at a lot of things, and healing the team is not one of those things, regardless of what energy cost you attach onto it.

If red needs more cards, which is arguable, it should be a card that makes red better at being red, not a card that makes red better at being some other color.

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Re: Card Requests

Postby idea bulb » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:19 pm

But what is red? I am not sure what their major stratagy is besides eating up energy faster then a derelict battleship.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:44 pm

Nobody ever drew up a formal color pie chart for HD.

However, it isn't too hard to figure all this stuff out on your own.

Just look at what each color can do.

Take discard, for example, if you look up every card that can make somebody discard you see the following cards
Terrornaught - Brown/Blue
Disrupt - Blue
Greater Techno - Gold (ability stolen from Teal, as gold does)
Mind Hack - Teal
Mind Wipe - Teal
Mind Virus - Teal/Red

Teal is pretty much in every one of those lines. I would hate to see more discard cards created, but if there are any, they should be Teal, because discard is clearly a Teal ability. The non-Teal ones should be removed/changed as well. Believe me, I have been trying to kill Disrupt for a long time. Terrornaught's ability would be next on the chopping block after that.

None of this is rocket science.

Do the same thing for healing the whole team. Red, Brown, Gold, and arguably Blue have ships that do this effect now. If another card gets added that heals the whole team, it should definitely be in one of those colors. Not that both Red and Blue both have effects that are 1/2 to 1/3 as good as those from the other colors on that list. This is because it is "more" in the other colors than in Red or Blue. The more powerful abilities of this type should be in the same colors as they already are.

You were right that red is an energy intensive color, it is that way on purpose. Indeed it it meant to be the absolute most energy intensive color there is. It is and it is that way on purpose. To get the most out of their abilities the red player is supposed to play tons of cards that generate energy.

Other colors can get by with a lot less generation, because they don't have nearly so many energy intensive abilities to power (usually). Blue also has tons of energy generation and generally the same problems as red in the energy department.

Being able to sacrifice part of a ship's power for some beneficial effect, clearly a Blue ability.

Being able to use ships to destroy lands, clearly a Brown ability.

Walls... pretty clearly a Teal thing.

Targeted damage, most of the cards of this type are red or green. Brown has some too, but only for 2 damage, not 3 or more. Purple has the highest non-sustainable ability of this kind, but no sustainable ones.

Unblockable/direct to base, that is pink. Gold has unblockable too on on the ship that borrows from pink.

For any ability, you can look through the cards like this and see what color(s) it goes with.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:12 pm

First off, let me get this out: penney, why dont you just stop designing such crappy, low-power cards and be done with it? sinse you seem to want me to stop doing what I like to do, you should do the same.

Second, based off of penney's latest statement, I propose a high power flavor card go to each race.

Gauntlet Class
10/30
6 :hu: 1 :rl:
Haste
1 :hu: : this ship becomes cloaked and gains 3 retalliate for 1 turn, this ship does not attack this turn.

Armored Bomber
9/20
5 :ca:
1 resist
0: deal 9 damage to target ship or base, this ship does not attack this turn.

Clergy Mage
10/32
8 :xy: 1 :rl:
Gives all allied ships +1/+1 when deployed
0: heals all allied ships for 4, this ship loses -1/-1

Logistics Drone
5/14
4 :cc:
Haste
each turn, logistics drone gains +1/+1
1 :cc: : gives an allied ship +1 attack

Shield Cruiser
4/50
5 :rv:
When launched, gives all allied ships 0/+4
every time an allied ship takes damage, 2 of that damage instead goes to the shield cruiser
(clarification: if you hit a dreadnought for 2, for example, the dreadnought doesn't take damage and the shield cruiser takes that 2 damage instead; 1 damage deals 1 damage to shield cruiser instead of dreadnought; and 3 damage deals 1 to dreadnought and 2 to shield cruiser)

Defence Node
3/3
2 :mt:
When launched, all allied ships gain 5 defence

Force Screen
0/50
4 :tm:
each turn, force screen gets +4/-4
0: this ship gains -X/+2X, X=this ship's attack.

Lesser Rift Demon
6/15
3 :rd:
Generates 4 random energy when launched
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