Card Requests

Talk about anything regarding the Hidden Dimensions core game and HD Spectrum.
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PenneyRZ
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:35 pm

@ Stat reset card

You also forgot the fact that blue decks generally have more like 120 life in a game not just 75 or 79.

Also, Hiraga isn't really the thing you want to reduce to 0 attack anyway, because the ability to do targeted damage anywhere on the board still sucks a lot. Hiragas you want to kill with blockers or Lost Mines. It is the stuff like Nagatos, Firewings, and Breakers that you want to reduce to 0 attack since once they get there those ships are worthless.

Also, I don't know if anybody would even play this card if it were invented. Yay, they can reset ship stats if their opponent reduces them. OK, what is going to happen when the opponents don't use cards like that? Not like Fortify is a PVP powerhouse or anything.

In contrast, almost everyone will be playing 4 of a card that is a whole lot more versatile and powerful anyway. Why would they need to add 4 of this new card when they already have 4 of a card that can do the same job and 5 other jobs at the same time?

I don't really care about its affect on any one strategy, what I care about is when/if/how it would be used.

The way I see it, the card would only ever be put into decks by an AI (if it were a colored card) and what would be the point of that? If we are going to put in any cards, they should be cards that players will put in decks for more than the 2 or 3 days it takes players to figure out how much they suck.

@ dark1n - It matters to have this discussion, because people who are trying to design cards need to know what they are doing. For any random person who has no idea what they are doing, 99 out of 100 card ideas they generate will be horrible. If they learn even a tiny bit about what they are doing, their hit rate would go up substantially. Somebody must understand what they are doing wrong and why it is wrong before they can ever learn to quit doing it and do something else instead. Moreover the idea must be proved clearly bad, lest it find its way into the game on accident and everybody loses.

As long as someone is willing to fight to defend a sucky card, people should be willing to fight to attack it. If the last word in a sucky card is a defending word, it could be implied that the people attacking it changed their minds and it isn't such a bad card after all.

@ Admin - The first idea is already covered by Fuel Tanker which, afaik, not many people really ever use in PVP. I would avoid making more of that. The second one is ok. The 3rd one has some potential. The last one should be 6 energy for +2/+2 as I showed like half a year ago, +1/+1 just isn't a big enough swing when it happens on one tiny ship.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Japheth » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:47 pm

MT ship card: Phantom morph
ability: cloaked
stats:5/20,5 :mt:
Edit: Did what you suggested penney
Last edited by Japheth on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:45 am, edited 22 times in total.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Japheth » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:50 pm

The stats might be too good too weak? But i think the name is good and a cloaked MT ship would be cool. ;D
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Chyriax » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:35 pm

its definately interesting. as cloaked ships go, it seems a little expensive, but average otherwise, trading another ability for slightly higher stats than venom or etherial fighter.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:45 pm

5/15 for 5 is way too weak. At least 5/20 or paying 4 for it would be a start toward making it playable.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Japheth » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:59 am

Can someone make an image for phantom morph? I know what you guys are thinking: Just do it yourself. I would but I don't know how :p
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:08 am

Re-iterating my current list of suggested changes. A couple were added or changed.

-------------------------

Scrapyard ability change. When a permanent dies (from either player), a random allied ship gets +1/+1.

All one shot energy drain effects drain all the opponent's energy. Remove all abilities that cause energy drain on successful attack (Greater Dark Demon, Combat Leech).

Crystal Cloud doesn't require sacrificing anything.

Lifelink doesn't require sacrificing anything. No additional +15.

Shield Spire - Change to Symbiosis Spire, costs 4, every turn gain 1 energy, base gains 1 life, and opponent's base loses 1 life.

Flak Turret hits 4 random targets for 1.

Add "This ship does not die at the end of the turn" to Assault card.

Charge - Ship doesn't die, instead it goes back to the original attack amount at the end of the turn.

Obfuscation Tower costs 6 to activate.

Mind Virus gets +2/+2 on successful hit, opponent doesn't discard.

Greater Fusion unblockable instead of cloaked.

Energy Burst costs 6.

Prismatic Spark - 4 Random each turn.

Prismatic Demon - 10 Random

Greater Prismatic Demon - 20 Random

Sensor Cluster - Instead of loses 2 life, you gain 2 life.

Prismatic Generator - Increases random generation by 3, costs 4 to cast.

Ancient Torpedo - Costs 2, only hits lands with click abilities.

Torpedo - Costs 1, only hits lands with click abilities.

Everlasting Torment
1 Red, 1 Pink
Structure
Player's can't repair bases or increase their base's HP. Damage can't be reduced.

Techno Wall
6 Teal
0/40
While this card is in play, prevent half the damage dealt to your base (round down).

Entropic Link
1 Purple
Structure
Each turn, this structure generates 1 purple energy and a random allied ship gets +0/+1.

Something to do with excess energy. Ability that lets you pay 20 energy to give the whole team +1/+1.

Playable Hand mode where you get 3 lands and 4 non-lands

MTG Legend Rule.

All gold clicky lands make 1 of each color every turn and have no click ability. All lands will gain the gold player 4 life when they come into play. If the land has an ability that happens every turn, it stays like it is.

Disrupt - Two random enemy ships get -2/-2.

Mind Hack - Change to "Equipment Retrofit" or something like that. Two of your ships randomly get +2/+4.

Crystal Aura - The base doesn't lose 4 HP.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Chyriax » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:50 am

disrupt/mind hack: thank you penney. i would much rather see these with the effects you just described than what they have been. i think i might even use disrupt if this change gets made.
charge/assault: if one of these two is made, it renders the other mostly unnecessary. i understand redundancy in suggestions, allowing multiple options for fixing things, but i thought i would point this one out.
flak turret: good thought, but maybe we can make this piercing or something, where it ignores damage resist? i like that it deals little damages to lots of ships, but its too easy to get around this way.
everlasting torment: i would still stand by my earlier suggestion of make it a ship, but.....your current torp suggestions make this entirely reasonable. selfishly speaking, i don't want either of these to become part of the game, but realistically speaking, lifegain could use some form of counter, otherwise it gets out of hand sometimes. if i don't have to even try to end up with 2x base max life at the end of a game, i understand the need for a counter to it. i also understand that shipyards are working better than they should be, plus other support lands that could use this like neb spire, which is why that 2x base max life is nearly full at the end of the game too.
entropic link: i must applaud this one. never thought i would see a way to make this work without giving it more of a beating with the nerf bat than it deserves, but you did it. exactly why i never claimed to know how to fix it.

gold clicky lands: can you clarify on what you mean in ability every turn staying like it is? is this saying that nebular rift would gain 1 blue, 1 gold, and do 1 damage, or that nebular rift would not change, as an example.

playable hand rule: as a player, this sounds like a good idea. as a deck designer and someone who appreciates the challenge of making a deck that can give you enough to work with from the starting hand within a couple mulligains, it appals me. this would appear to encourage terrible deck building in which someone included only 3 elite lands as the only lands in a deck, relying on a rule like this to make it work. this probably is not what you intended, so i might be (and probably am, i find it more likely) clearly misunderstanding you. its either that or you just didn't notice how it could be abused. either way, honest mistake, happens to us all lol
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:08 am

Charge/Assault - Admin hates deleting cards, so the next best alternative is to change the cards so they are both reasonably good. He might be willing to take the image from charge and make a completely different card out of it, but that would mean making a solid case that it should happen. I don't have a brown card that I want to replace Charge with at this moment, so I figured I would just make Charge a little better than it is now as a step in the right direction.

Flak Turret - If they can resist the damage, oh well. People had a hissy fit when I said 3x 2 dmg so I nerfed it down a little with 1 more target and 1 less damage per target for 33% less dmg overall. In any event, its not like this card needs to be an instant 4 of in brown decks or anything. If it can be easily resisted by things like Nagato, that would help keep it from becoming too prevalent.

Everlasting Torment - I agree that I don't really like what this card would do to a lot of my favorite strategies as well, but I am not really here to make my own decks win. I mean I could advocate for buffing my pet cards and sound really convincing when I am doing it, but all I want is to see the game be better even if that makes my decks be worse. This card would be a counter to a whole lot of things that are difficult to counter at the moment, which would be pretty nice in a lot of ways.

Entropic Link - It is kinda decent in this iteration, especially since it combines pretty well with regen from Negator and it combines really well with Devourer, which would probably get an extra shot of 10 damage because of it in a lot of games. It has utility with things like Grasper Morph and Adaptomorph too. It would be a tremendous step down from being the undeniably most powerful card in the entire game, but it would do a lot to address the power level of purple decks too.

Gold Clicky Lands - Yes I mean that Nebular Rift would be 1 blue, 1 gold, 1 damage all of that each turn. Solar Rift would be 1 gold, 1 red, 1 damage all of that each turn. Grav Rift would be hit with the nerf bat the hardest since it is 9 life and the ability every turn, so it would be a straight downgrade of 5 life throughout the whole time it is in play, but it would give a brown a turn which would make up for it. Regardless, it is hard to argue that these would be overpowered after this sweeping change.

Playable Hand Rule - The toughest sell. I understand the potential to play only 3 lands in the whole stack. Note that this would really be all you could play. If you added any extra structures so you didn't just have 2 slots free every game then you would reduce your chances of getting the 3 energy generating structures.

If my other suggestion about spare energy being spendable for +1/+1 to the team, having fewer lands might hamper one's ability to use that effect.

In any event, if everybody started playing 3 land decks and used the other card slots for ships and action cards I am not sure that the game would be worse off for it.

There would still be some strategy in there too. Do you take all 3 lands that generate 2 energy and accept not being able to come out till turn 3? Do you put in one of the basic lands that gets 1 energy on turn 1 so you can drop all 3 lands on turn 1 and come out on turn 2?

What if the opponent plays green with Dark Rifts and Dark Energy Tower?

What if they use Adelan Device?

There are some options that people have that could make people potentially a little miserable if they were only playing 3 land decks. If the other changes go through that I posted, there would be a lot more 100% drains for energy which would mean players could make it pretty difficult for a 3 land player to cast assault ships.

It is a complicated thing, but not necessarily bad. Both people would be able to do any trick conceivable so it would even out in any event.

You might even have some people trying to pull off 3 lands including non-basics and have them loading up on other sources of energy. Like if a blue player was playing 8x "artifact" energy and 4x Nebula Scouts and for their 3 lands using 1 of each kind of special lands. Or Red players trying something with 1x Solar Citadel and 2x Artillery Turret with 8x "Artifact" energy generators.

There are quite a few possibilities and reasonable counters for some stuff too.

One big upside, though, would be that people wouldn't be land screwed, plus or minus, most of the time and everyone's deck would be working like it is supposed to work most of the time. Another upside would be that people would have 27 cards with which to interact in the game, not just 16. That is like 70% more.

Right now, there are a lot of cards that just never get used because a high ship count and a high land count means they aren't worth deck space. More of those cards would get used with 11 more free deck slots.

Yet another upside thing that factors in would be the narrowing of the gap between the pros and newbs. Newbs often don't play enough energy cards so they often get run over before they can get cards out. This would help ensure they can at least get out of the starting gates most of the time and play at least some things before they die.

This could be helpful because a dismal performance in the first few games played might cause a newb to give up on the game entirely. If HDX was more newb friendly in this way, the player count might benefit for it.

There is a lot going on with this change, and the end result isn't completely clear, but it has promise, I think.

Also, it could remain a variation. It doesn't have to be forced. People could set to allow or not allow the playable hand rule like they do with ranked or unranked games and if somebody doesn't want to play that way they don't have to.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Chyriax » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:31 am

i think i see your point here. im afraid it encourages dismal building of decks, acting as a crutch for people who don't want to play enough energy so they never learn, but i see the point. it would make things interesting in terms of those willing to attemp garunteed starting cards though. foremost among those starting hands is something like fusion monolith, fusion furnace, and obscure megalith. this makes for 6 energy per turn from the get go for a color set notorious for rushes. more energy needed? add fusion capacitor. want it only 1 color, trade the furnace or metalith for another of the remaining one. this pretty well ensures ships to start going down from the hand as fast or faster than they are drawn, even without the artifact energy. its a perfect rush setup, and in a 30 card deck, its rather obvious we can make a deck full of cheap, fast ships only so its consistent.
personally speaking: i would *only* use the playable hand rule if i felt i could make it to my advantage, and that means cutting out most of the lands in the deck so i know exactly what half my hand is from the begining. otherwise, anyone who has ever played me can testify that i like using my support lands, no matter what race im playing.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:56 am

I am a pretty big fan of lands too, don't get me wrong. I play more lands than anybody. I was arguing that 16/14 was what people should be playing when 10 - 12 was more the norm. I even wrote about how 14 ships and 16 lands could be the right configuration in many cases. Back when I wrote that stuff it was pretty true too.

As far as I know, I am the person who has had the longest uninterrupted win streak in this game on the impossible skill level with random opponent decks (like 253, iirc). That was without cheaty stuff like Techno Walls too.

The deck I did that with was 14 ships and 16 lands. All that because the number 1 enemy to any good deck builder is randomness.

As for giving 6 energy per turn to a rush color... 6 energy per turn for both a rush deck and a defensive deck should usually result in about equal chances if the game is balanced correctly.

Another upside... guaranteed 3 lands makes 3 and 4 color decks possible.

Pretend my change to the gold lands went through as well as this. The gold player could guarantee themselves 4 colors of energy every game.

For that matter, if people are going to use Elemental Techno Crystal and any 2x 2 different color generators people could play the whole 8 colors in their decks consistently if they wanted to. They would have a lot harder time of saving up for big ships, but they would make up for it by having a lot of deck building versatility that they just don't have right now.

You could easily run a double splash off of one land.

There are plenty of possibilities for things you can do with your decks when you can control your energy income and expenses with a high level of precision.

Most of the reason that we can't play 4 color, 3 color, or sometimes even 2 color decks right now is that we can't control that energy income enough to make it worth playing that many colors. The absolute least risk of color screw comes from playing just 1 color.

That doesn't really help people to open up and play interesting multi-color decks.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Kuro » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:20 pm

PenneyRZ wrote:All one shot energy drain effects drain all the opponent's energy.overpowered on fusion drain, dark energy, dark obelisk, at least

Shield Spire - Change to Symbiosis Spire, costs 4, every turn gain 1 energy, base gains 1 life, and opponent's base loses 1 life. too weak for the cost, needs 2 energy/turn or cost 3 or drain 2 life

Add "This ship does not die at the end of the turn" to Assault card.
I don't understand this one. ???

Obfuscation Tower costs 6 to activate.
maybe we could test 5 first

Energy Burst costs 6.
is not a very good card at the moment, why nerf it ? should it cost 6, people will simply play lost mine instead.

Entropic Link
1 Purple
Structure
Each turn, this structure generates 1 purple energy and a random allied ship gets +0/+1.
worse than a regular land


As for the rest, my view is either that it is ok, or that I need more thought about it to make up my mind. But globally my view about them is "why not".
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:26 pm

Kuro wrote:
PenneyRZ wrote:All one shot energy drain effects drain all the opponent's energy.overpowered on fusion drain, dark energy, dark obelisk, at least
hes doing this so that, if your going to drain some of the opponent's energy, you at least drain enough to be effective

Shield Spire - Change to Symbiosis Spire, costs 4, every turn gain 1 energy, base gains 1 life, and opponent's base loses 1 life. too weak for the cost, needs 2 energy/turn or cost 3 or drain 2 life
agreed. last time I even heard about symbiosis spire, I liked the CC so little i could have cared less about them.

Add "This ship does not die at the end of the turn" to Assault card.
I don't understand this one. ???
example: if you charge a hammerhead, use its ability, and use the CC sacrifice, hammerhead will die at the end of the turn; with this, assault will remedy the problem.

Obfuscation Tower costs 6 to activate.
maybe we could test 5 first
I swear, I feel overpowered every single time I use it and it doesnt cost at least 5. I would prefer 6.

Energy Burst costs 6.
is not a very good card at the moment, why nerf it ? should it cost 6, people will simply play lost mine instead.
at the moment, it costs HALF of a lost mine, and in the early game, the RD can easily afford 4 energy early on. early on, the likelyhood of hitting a critical ship, because all early-on ships are critical, is 100%.

Entropic Link
1 Purple
Structure
Each turn, this structure generates 1 purple energy and a random allied ship gets +0/+1.
worse than a regular land
MT are already overpowered as it is. dont believe me? fight me with lance and I will show you.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Kuro » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:42 pm

About Assault : if it is really supposed to do this (prevent sacrificed ships from dying) then I would have to call a terrible card design. It has the wrong name, and an effect that kills other cards' design : I mean, when you use Hammerhead's ability, your ship is supposed to ram the opposing ship and kill both ships. Creating a card to would somehow save it seems a really bad design. I also don't see the use to add such a card it the current state of the game : which purpose would it serve ? (balance-wise).

About drain, ob-tower, burst and link : I have played 4 times more ranked game than you and I am 5 rank ahead of you. Chances are that my views about these subjects are more accurate than yours. MT are no longer overpowered, by the way.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:00 pm

I dont know about you, but when ramming, I usually fire weapons. however, studying the ship commanders from world war 1, people were idiots back then. apparantly, so are the RV. if you dont order them to fire weapons at the ship they are ramming, then in all likelyhood, they won't, and their ship won't survive. assault simply orders them to fire while ramming. the reason we want assault to do this is because the RV simply lose too much.

and don't you DARE use rank as a way to prove your points are better than mine. simply put, you haven't played in forever, your skills that you used to have are rusty, and like i said, before you even mention that the MT aren't overpowered, FIGHT ME.

seriously, if you want to disprove something I say, DISPROVE IT WITH SOLID FACTS. don't just say "im more experienced therefore im better" actually prove what I say is wrong.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Greywing » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:07 pm

Giving a ship invulnerability in an uncontrolled manner like that will not happen. Too many things can go wrong. Too much additional code would be needed to make sure only the correct cause of shipdeaths are triggered. If the fact that it makes a nice combo for RV is the only reason to add, then that's reason enough for me not to add it. This goes beyond synergy.
In the particular case of assault, there's no point to give a ship invulnerability for one turn. The temporary invulnerability mechanic is on my list of ideas and i will look into it sooner or later, but it remains a dangerous thing.

The current change to Entropic link is that it triggers only on allied ships and no longer on structures. MT spawns will only generate energy if you have less than opponent (they might get a second ability if that makes them too weak). HD:X alpha will hopefully tell if that is an improvment over the current situation.

Obfuscation tower is still planned to be restricted for pvp, but i rather see another solution so the restriction can be dropped. The best idea i've heard so far (think it was from dark1n) is only allow it to be used once every two turns. I have a few new mechanics in mind that have the side effect that they can make this possible. But those mechanics need to be added first.
Either its a counter system that adds a counter to the card every turn, but it can only be activated when there are two counters on the card (you can still save up 4 and do two activations each turn). Basically the tower needs to be charged up before it can be used.
Another way is giving this card an ability that changes every turn. One turn if allows you to keep opponent from drawing, the other turn it could change into an ability (for instance) that lets you look at opponents hand.
This card only becomes problematic if it's activated every turn. It seems more interesting to fix it in that regard instead of changing the cost.

I have no plans to change energy drain at this point.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:12 pm

Greywing wrote:MT spawns will only generate energy if you have less than opponent (they might get a second ability if that makes them too weak).


Thank you. the leeches are one of the reasons that make the MT overpowered, because they provide so much of an energy advantage.
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Kuro » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:24 pm

@Hawk : i play games in a regular basis, even now, and often against rank 10+ players, with various decks on both sides. I don't believe my skill or deckbuilding is rusty. Come in the pvp lobby sometimes, and you will see.

@Greywing : about the counter thing on obtower, here is an idea : have the activation cost increase with each activation. 1rst could cost 3 :rv:, 2nd 4 :rv:, 3rd 5 :rv:, 4th 6 :rv:, etc... this would make it unpractical to use it undefinitly, and would also make it useful to draw a second one (to replace the one currently in use when it has too many counters).
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Re: Card Requests

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:57 pm

If the Entropic Link effect changes to 1 energy per turn and a random +0/+1 per turn, it could lose the cost spent to play it without a problem.

Shield Spire - If the change happens, it would be ok to be a little more aggressive with the costing. Not like pink is a sucky color right now or anything.

Obfuscation Tower - I would rather just delete it, but Admin doesn't like doing that. If it isn't going to be deleted, I would rather change the effect to where it isn't a denial effect. If that also isn't going to be done, I would rather have 6 than 5.

Energy Burst - It isn't that great, and it shouldn't be. Costing this much closer to Lost Mine means that people will probably avoid this card, which is good because the random effect is pretty unwelcome. This is more a PVE card than a PVP card anyway, and it would make a noticeable difference in the amount of stupid things the gold AI can do.

Assault - I don't really care about flavor, other people can worry about that. Anything that is good for the game can have some reasonably flavorful explanation made up for it. This change should make very little difference in the overall scheme of things, but open up some interesting possibilities for rogue deck builders. You never know, people might try using a deck with 4x Hammerhead, 4x Battlecruiser, 4x Charge, and 4x Assault if this change were made.

I think it would be pretty hilarious to have people clicking battlecruiser (7/7) using charge (16/7), clicking battlecruiser (18/9) and using assault on it (22/9) and swinging with it all on the same turn and it doesn't even die at the end of the turn.

It would probably kill whatever was opposite of it and then get killed by a Lost Mine in a 3 for 2 exchange, or it would just hit the base for 22 and die in a 3 for 1 exchange. It certainly wouldn't be any less fair than some other things in the game. It would encourage people to use more Data Echoes and Sabotages at the very least.

All one shot effects drain 100% of energy - They usually won't drain much more than they do now anyway. Also, it really doesn't matter how much energy they drain, because all that matters is having enough energy to cast something and that can often be generated before the time to cast the next thing anyway. If the opponent goes from 100 energy spare to 0 energy spare they will probably generate 9 or 10 and be able to play whatever they have next turn anyway.

The only time when the energy gain of cards like fusion drain matters it will work exactly like it does now and the time when they become completely useless will disappear entirely. It is much better to drain 100 out of 100 than 5 out of 100, at least then you have a chance they can't play the next card if the cost is really high, like 12, even if it is turn 20 and you don't need the energy on your own turn 20.

Admin having no plans to change this - It should definitely be planned. It is a good way to keep the power of some cards under control that are impacted by the amount of energy in the pool to ensure they don't become too strong. It allows players a way to use the card pool to attack the root cause (too much energy) in a way that actually makes an impact rather than just attacking the symptom (a channeler, for instance) when the symptom can just resurface again 1 turn later (when they draw and cast another channeler).

When possible balancing should be done through better counter cards (like one shot drains that remove 100%) rather than through things like nerfing.

There is no good reason that energy drain cards should only be useful on the first 4 or 5 turns and completely worthless the rest of the game. Keeping them worthless after turn 5 just ensures that nobody will ever use them.
PenneyRZ
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Kuro
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Re: Card Requests

Postby Kuro » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:05 pm

yeah you kinda make sense. let's put my view on drain to "why not" status then.

After some games against hawk's MT " " "overpowered" " " deck (that still cannot win against any kind of fast deck or discard deck, but well...) : I think changing space warp would be enough to remove all possible imbalance. Then people would only have to pack a minimum of 4 insta kills to be able to stand up quite nicely.

If the change on draining is effective, then we should no longer have anythong to worry about.

About Greywing's idea to make link only trigger for ships and not structure : this could work, it's worth testing. But then no need for other MT nerf.

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