Card ideas

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space-mariner51
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Re: Card ideas

Postby space-mariner51 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:49 am

PenneyRZ wrote:I am more inclined to just take away all the abilities of all the purple leeches and do nothing else.


Uhhhhhh, then what?
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:14 am

In another thread I had the idea to give an opposing ship -0/-1 when they hit it. That could be a replacement.

Or just not replace it with anything. Not like purple is hurting for power level or anything.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:37 am

as I was saying, why are we trying to buff what needs to be nerfed?
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:55 am

The 2/10 leech that drains 1 energy when it hits doesn't need to be nerfed, it is the one of the top 5 or so suckiest cards in the whole game. Almost certainly the suckiest ship. If anything it could probably be upgraded.

However, it does have an ability that it should ideally not have. Neither one of these leeches needs to gain energy for the owner and one of them doesn't need to cause energy loss too.

At least with a -0/-1 or -0/-2 to the opposing ship the still have some ability even if it doesn't have a super tremendous game impact.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby space-mariner51 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:05 am

Energy Leech: Lousy card, with a very good ability. Why are you nerfing that so it's the worse card in the game, especially if you need a Leech Hive to get at Combat Leech? While you're at it, nerf Vector and Assault Dorgan so that they're equal to Energy Leech. Oh by the way, what do you plan to do about the Dark Demons?

Let's focus on things that are OP, not cards whose abilities we hate.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:39 am

space-mariner51 wrote:Energy Leech: Lousy card, with a very good ability. Why are you nerfing that so it's the worse card in the game, especially if you need a Leech Hive to get at Combat Leech? While you're at it, nerf Vector and Assault Dorgan so that they're equal to Energy Leech. Oh by the way, what do you plan to do about the Dark Demons?

Let's focus on things that are OP, not cards whose abilities we hate.


Seconded. I would like to see penney get back to his job of card perfecter rather than being just a mere card hater.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:17 am

If you have been keeping up, there is a method to the madness.

The idea is to get rid of every turn energy drain in a ship based form.

The dark demons would become 1 shot full drains (negator too). No every turn drains on any of them.

See the thing you guys aren't realizing is that I hate abilities that are bad for the game. I don't hate an ability because it is good against me or anything like that.

If I had my way, Energy Leech would just get deleted, but Admin doesn't like to delete things, he would rather repurpose them. Once he has made a piece of artwork he wants to use it for something even if that thing sucks.

That is part of why I try to make a lot of things better instead of just deleting them entirely which is preferable in a lot of cases.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby space-mariner51 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:17 am

PenneyRZ wrote:If you have been keeping up, there is a method to the madness.

The idea is to get rid of every turn energy drain in a ship based form.

The dark demons would become 1 shot full drains (negator too). No every turn drains on any of them.

See the thing you guys aren't realizing is that I hate abilities that are bad for the game. I don't hate an ability because it is good against me or anything like that.

If I had my way, Energy Leech would just get deleted, but Admin doesn't like to delete things, he would rather repurpose them. Once he has made a piece of artwork he wants to use it for something even if that thing sucks.

That is part of why I try to make a lot of things better instead of just deleting them entirely which is preferable in a lot of cases.


Assuming that happens, a number of ships will be affected, and everyone must be okay with the changes. I think that will make everyone go to Dark Crystal, Fusion Drain, Energy Drain, and all remaining cards with energy drain. How else can you counter that you only have 2 energy per turn while your opponent has 8 energy per turn?
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:07 pm

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Only one person has to want something changed and his name is Greywing(ed Angel).

Also, if one person is generating 2 per turn while the other is generating 8 per turn, it sounds like one of the two people didn't build their deck correctly or maybe didn't mulligan correctly.

If people start using tons of those cards like Dark Crystal instead of real energy generation lands (1 shot vs every turn) then they probably deserve to have 2 energy generation per turn.

It isn't even that useful to reduce your opponents pool to 0. Outside of Entropic Channeler most of the time people could care less if they had 12 or 200 energy in their pool. As long as they have enough generation to cast whatever they draw then they don't face any disruption of their game. It just makes it harder for people to save up for the largest ships in the early game.

In that vein, it is little different from what a Dark Demon or Negator does now. In the early game, 5 generation per turn isn't uncommon. So one person might try to save up their 5 for 2 turns to play a 10 quickly. The Dark Demon or Negator essentially drain the entire pool in this situation.

The only difference is that later in the game instead of a negligible energy loss (4 out of a pool of 30) there is a meaningful energy loss (30 out of a pool of 30).
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Re: Card ideas

Postby idea bulb » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:20 pm

Penney, you must know that there are bigger fish to fry then energy drain cards! I believe that you best quit on the subject before you lose all of your influence over this website.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:36 pm

idea bulb wrote:Penney, you must know that there are bigger fish to fry then energy drain cards! I believe that you best quit on the subject before you lose all of your influence over this website.


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e16/b ... e_1312.gif
(moderated : link large images instead of embedding them please)

i just hope he hasnt already.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:06 pm

idea bulb wrote:Penney, you must know that there are bigger fish to fry then energy drain cards! I believe that you best quit on the subject before you lose all of your influence over this website.


I don't think you are looking to replace me any time soon.

Also, I don't think you really have any sort of say about what should be a priority or how much influence I have. You probably don't even have any idea about what really deserves priority or how much influence I have, for that matter.

You should seriously think about letting those with a background in this sort of thing do their thing while you just play the game.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby idea bulb » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:15 pm

I'm not trying to replace you, I'm just trying to prevent you from ruining all of your credibility that you have gained here. This subject looks like it may be your waterloo so you best retreat.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Greywing » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:46 pm

I value input from all sides. No-one should feel intimidated when it comes to bringing up ideas or possible balance issues.

That said, i have no plans to change anything regarding energy drain. And as i said before, combat leech will most likely lose their energy generation ability and get something. Beyond that i'm not even worrying about balance and card changes as i'm in the middle of coding gameplay mechanics.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:53 pm

Don't make the mistake of believing that I really care what you think about me. I am not here so you can like me, I am here so I can make this game better. What you think about me is at best tertiary.

So far my list looks more like this

------


Scrapyard ability change. When a permanent dies (from either player), a random allied ship gets +1/+1.

All one shot energy drain effects drain all the opponent's energy. Remove all abilities that cause energy drain on successful attack (Greater Dark Demon, Combat Leech).

Crystal Cloud doesn't require sacrificing anything.

Lifelink doesn't require sacrificing anything.

Shield Spire - Change to Symbiosis Spire, costs 4, every turn gain 1 energy, base gains 1 life, and opponent's base loses 1 life.

Flak Turret hits 4 random targets for 1.

Add "This ship does not die at the end of the turn" to Assault card.

Obfuscation Tower costs 6 to activate.

Mind Virus gets +2/+2 on successful hit, opponent doesn't discard.

Greater Fusion unblockable instead of cloaked.

Energy Burst costs 6.

All gold clicky lands make 1 of each color every turn and have no click ability.

Prismatic Spark - 4 Random each turn.

Prismatic Demon - 10 Random

Greater Prismatic Demon - 20 Random

Sensor Cluster - No life loss for the base

Prismatic Generator - Increases random generation by 3, costs 4 to cast.

Ancient Torpedo - Costs 1, only hits lands with click abilities.

Torpedo - Costs 5, hits all lands with click abilities.

Everlasting Torment
1 Red, 1 Pink
Structure
Player's can't repair bases or increase their base's HP. Damage can't be reduced.

-----

It isn't my fault that you showed up and started whining about one particular bullet point.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby idea bulb » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:38 am

I like your proposals about the :rd: and the :rl: but your thoughts about torpedos only able to be used on lands with a click ability is way out of line. As for the rest I have one thing to say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:01 am

actually, i like his proposal for ancient torp. I like it, but the ability for solar harvester and whatnot should go on all the health-CIP/no bonus ability structures. that way, structures like solar plant have an excuse for being included: protection from ancient torpedo.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Chyriax » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:13 am

as far as i have seen, there are very few suggestions penney makes that ar out of line. the changes to energy drain, at least to my opinion, are good suggestions. the changes to torpedos are in line with that, removing long term energy denial as a strong strategy. its just as annoying as mind virus is currently, long term forced discard. i cannot agree with making the red torp hit all support lands, and i feel that 1 energy is too few for ancient torp, but this eliminates their viability as energy drain tactics. currently, one torp can ruin your day by destroying that elite land, or worse, say you have one prismatic spire and AR base supporting two or three ancient converters. they had first turn, so laid out lands already before this and have enough energy to use a torpedo on your prismatic spire. they then get the chance to take out three or four structures off that ONE TORP! one shot costs your entire starting hand's worth of structures, and your probably not going to be lucky enough to get more to use quickly enough to get anything out. it can also further lock you out of a second race, destroying the first dual structure you find after digging through half the deck, assuming you had a major race and only splashed a minor with 4 dual structures and 8 main race.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:36 am

The ability to target energy producing lands unfairly punishes people playing multiple colors, which should be supported rather than punished. Chryiax is on the same page here. If you only draw one of the energy structures and they destroy it you could be locked out of half your deck. That is a game winning advantage. The way you build around this? By playing just 1 color...

Contrast with energy producers not being targetable, they have to focus on where they should be focusing, beating your ships and your life total. The other stuff you are bitching about, energy drain, doubly punishes people playing multiple colors if energy lands are targetable. If they get out 2 drain lands (not hard) and torpedo your off color producer then even if you had your base as your off color you would only have one of it, and 75% likely it would be gone every turn. That is just with 2. I have been testing a green deck and 3 on the first turn isn't hugely uncommon.

The lands that impact combat, for the most part the ones with click abilities, definitely should be targetable. Targeting the lands that can be clicked is short form for targeting non-energy producers. In the game right now I don't think there is a difference between any kind of lands based on what they do. Targeting a clickable one should be codeable with the least amount of work at this point. I would rather Admin overhaul the system so that each land has a boolean property of either killable or not killable, but I do try to avoid admin having to scrap his existing system, even if the results aren't perfect.

I don't know why all the hostility to torpedo being able to destroy all the undesirables on the board, but if it is such a big deal, maybe this instead

Blood Moon Ship
5 Red
5/20
Cloaked.
Each land produces one energy of its race instead of whatever it normally does.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Chyriax » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:54 am

i have no complaints about this ship. if it is too much to handle, one can just use all that extra energy to play some ship and kill it, but they could preserve it until more energy is built up as well. and as for my adamant opposition to your red torp, its mostly the same reason i have pushed so hard for greywing to get rid of chain reaction. when too many cards fly into the discard pile at once, it makes too much of a change to the board from one move. it is entirely too much of an advantage now to destroy 4 of a particular ship at once, particularly against specialized decks. the ability to wipe up to all 5 structures is even worse. it punishes efficiency of supporting your ships with structures, forcing no more than half of the structures to be support at any given time, lest there be too much advantage to using the torp. this would summarily finish the tactic of filling the structure slots with support structures, which i felt was the point of your prior suggestion of introducing even more artifact energy. given how red is theoretically 1/8 of the decks used, (practically more with the last stats, but lets go with the easy number of 1/8 anyway) this would make a must in red decks, so with about one in every 8 decks faced having this impossible counter to any support lands, that makes a sizeable portion of decks that can easily stop this strategy as a simple afterthought. many decks would splash red just to get this, meaning that more damage would be done to the viability of relying on support lands at all than could be easily repaired, unless we actually went to the effort of adding cloak to certain ones. this is an option i would already be open to, though not as packaging with lands to begin with, more as a card of around 5-8 energy cost, target land is indestructable, cloaked, ignores any effects that hit structures from any source, friend or foe, from now til kingdom come(game ends). this includes recycling, fyi, just to make people be absolutely sure they want a permanant structure around and not use this on something worthless.
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