Card ideas

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PenneyRZ
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:15 am

I did intend for blue to be a heavy structure color, and it would play the same at least 7/8 of the time using your 1/8 of people play red example.

From the point of view of the red deck, its probably not going to be worth replacing 4 ships with 4 of these torpedoes on the 1/8 chance that the opponent will be playing blue.

Even if they are playing blue, it might not even be good against them if they aren't packing very many special lands.

They would make their rushes much worse if they dedicated 4 deck slots for these too.

Would they really try so hard to hate on blue?

How about if it meant they can't use any artillery turrets themselves? Using the version that it kills all special lands in play including the red player's own lands.

It would also mean that their own lands that do the data crystal protection would be blown up too.

They would be blowing up their own lands 8/8 of the time in the hope they could blow up good blue lands 1/8 of the time?

I think there are more downsides than you are seeing.

Also, there is nothing wrong with trying to get blue to play some ships out of its hand once in a while too.

So red probably won't play 4 if it plays any and 7/8 of the time whatever it does play won't be a blue deck, it is starting to sound pretty bad to me.

Even if they play vs blue they might not draw one if they only have like 2 in the deck.

Even if they play blue the blue player might only put out 2 lands and if they put out their own denial protection land they are looking at a 1 for 1.

It seems to me like the time when it is good is like 1% of the time it is drawn. Last I checked that isn't worth deck space.

The only way it would be worth it to play this was if it affected a whole lot more than just blue opponents.

If 3 or 4 colors had decks heavy in non-energy lands, then it would be worth playing even 2.

I don't know if you have played any other card games like MTG or not, but in MTG these sorts of cards are always sideboard cards because its almost never worth maindecking them. Especially when the hardest decks to beat are going to be stuff like purple combo and pink rush which are both mostly unaffected by it.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Chyriax » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:31 pm

i have gotten in enough MTG to know how dangerous something like this is. i played one person who just liked using green. they had this very upsetting card called creeping corrosion, which, against a normal deck, would be highly annoying, but against my deck, blue/white with *HEAVY* artifacts, it was devastating. this is essentially the card you are suggesting. i was trying to use artifact permanants heavily as support for my troops, which were mostly weaker ones designed to infect. it was even a comparable situation where some of my artifacts functioned as shipyards, creating troops every couple turns. and fyi, it didn't slow them down one bit. thanks to a card called praetor's council, they just picked up their entire graveyard and started playing with it. that included plenty of creatures i had already killed. of course, green, being what it is, had plenty of land searches going for it to pay for all this. they just waited a few more turns until they had enough of an army to completely bypass my creatures still thankfully equiped with darksteel plate(fortunately THAT at least read indestructable) and attacked en-masse. i didn't have enough blockers to stop them at this point, them having the whole graveyard back in hand. now i admit, this won't be as bad as that situation, but last i heard, greywing *is* putting up ways of getting your scrapyard back into the deck, at least simulating the praetor's council in this situation. under that circumstance, any red player will include at least 1-2 of these, just in case, since in a 30 card deck, they won't be out too much, and only wait 2 turns from those not getting ships. if this is such a big problem, add troy.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:41 pm

There are already plenty of cards similarly bad for the opponent in the game as it is.

Nanobot Swarm if they use mostly ships with 4 or less attack, for instance. Nobody complains about those.

Ultranaughts can be plenty bad for decks with a lot of support lands and no direct ship kill cards.

Those cards are fairly useful against every color.

The card we are talking about is exceptionally bad most of the time and good some small amount of the time.

I am kinda old school in MTG, so I have a similar card called Shatterstorm. The way we built decks to get around this card was just not including so many artifacts that this card would completely wreck us OR just accepting the fact that if we played someone with it then they would wreck us.

There was another card too, called Cleansing or something that said "Destroy all black creatures" and the black players would only put out a couple creatures at a time so they didn't lose their whole deck to it. They also used cards like Hymn to Tourach to make them discard it.

All I am saying is... people adapt. If you are playing the one card that exceptionally wrecks the opponent's whole deck, you should expect to have a pretty good chance to beat them. If you are playing cards that are exceptionally bad against your opponent's deck, you should expect to have a tough time against them. That is just how it goes.

The more of the red torpedoes that get played, the more people will compensate by taking out their cards affected by it and then it won't be so good and red players will quit using it, then people put cards affected by it back in their decks, and so on.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby dark1n » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:07 am

even in a game - even in a sf game - things should make sense. a torpedo which differentiates between enemy structures with active abilities and structures without them DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.

i'd like to see torpedos organized this way:

Positron Torpedo (2 :rl:) - "Destroy target structure. Can not target energy generators."
Ancient Torpedo (8 :rl:) - "Destroy target structure."
Torpedo (6 :hu:) - "Destroy target structure."
Shatter (7 :rv: 2 :rl:) - (same text)

and, as said before, i'd like cooldowns slapped on ultranought and adelan device. and if the cooldowns were implemented in a way that these two can not use its ability on their first active turn, that would break the nasty synergy between ultranought and the assault action.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Chyriax » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:23 pm

one good thing about MTG, lands are hard to target. if you end up mana screwed in MTG, odds are your enemy had nothing to do with it, except in rare cases where it came out as a secondary ability to destroy a land because they saw you were *already* mana screwed, so they decided to help it out. if you end up mana screwed here, its probably because you have someone chewing torps like they are candy. someone plays red, gets a good starting hand that happens to have a torp, their enemy plays, is fairly obviously mana screwed, only playing a single ETC. thats reasonable mana in one structure, though slow, but one torp is all it takes to shut them out of the game forever. this is what we don't want. maybe we should change the names or something, but the result is the same, remove the ability to target energy structures to prevent people from getting locked out.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:46 pm

No matter how much you YELL, it doesn't make you any more RIGHT.

Making sense has absolutely nothing to do with it. You can bend the story to fit in whatever you want. If the only problem is that it doesn't make sense, then you might as well not have a problem at all.

Maybe the reactors that make energy are hardened against attack so the weapons in use by militaries aren't good enough. Sounds plausible to me. Smart even.

Maybe all the power plant's important parts are below ground and the missiles can't get down there to blow them up. Perhaps all the damage to the surface buildings just take out some administrative offices?

That would make sense, because the buildings they CAN target like shipyards have more of a need to be on the surface so they can release ships or whatever.

It doesn't even have to be explained, though. I have no idea what the backstory of this game even is. I heard a couple things, but I never read it. This is a card game and it needs to be functional from that perspective before you bring other things in. You would be surprised how many people here probably don't know or care about the back story aspect nearly as much as they care about how the colors interact over the board.

I mean, from a storyline perspective, some race out there should design a 20/20 that costs 1 energy to produce. That would make sense, because it would be a super smart thing to do story wise if they wanted to ensure their civilization's survival. Out of all the races, none have managed to accomplish anything even remotely close to that, why? Because the gameplay is the only thing that matters and that would mess up gameplay.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:59 pm

PenneyRZ wrote:No matter how much you YELL, it doesn't make you any more RIGHT.

I think he was YELLING to put EMPHASIS on CERTAIN THINGS. not everyone realizes CAPS are YELLING, sometimes they think they are putting EMPHASIS on it.

Making sense has absolutely nothing to do with it. You can bend the story to fit in whatever you want. If the only problem is that it doesn't make sense, then you might as well not have a problem at all.

agreed.

Maybe the reactors that make energy are hardened against attack so the weapons in use by militaries aren't good enough. Sounds plausible to me. Smart even.

better idea: radiation torpedoes basically damage the computer on any non-energy generating structure such that the computer is no longer operative, thus making the structure useless; regular and ancient torpedoes simply penetrate to the reactor core and blow it up.

Maybe all the power plant's important parts are below ground and the missiles can't get down there to blow them up. Perhaps all the damage to the surface buildings just take out some administrative offices?

see previous point on the non-energy generators, but otherwise agreed.

That would make sense, because the buildings they CAN target like shipyards have more of a need to be on the surface so they can release ships or whatever.

agreed.

It doesn't even have to be explained, though. I have no idea what the backstory of this game even is. I heard a couple things, but I never read it. This is a card game and it needs to be functional from that perspective before you bring other things in. You would be surprised how many people here probably don't know or care about the back story aspect nearly as much as they care about how the colors interact over the board.

quite frankly, penney, your job is to balance the cards. my job is to provide a backstory that can explain it.

I mean, from a storyline perspective, some race out there should design a 20/20 that costs 1 energy to produce. That would make sense, because it would be a super smart thing to do story wise if they wanted to ensure their civilization's survival. Out of all the races, none have managed to accomplish anything even remotely close to that, why? Because the gameplay is the only thing that matters and that would mess up gameplay.


actually, its not just because of the gameplay. having a super duper energy efficient ultra-juggernought of a hiraga shoved into a tarynn'ixia is just so expensive, you would wreck any normal economy just to build it. having a 1 :hu: 20/20 ship is just too expensive to implement. see? i just explained it without really trying that hard.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:52 pm

Actually, its generally Admin's job to write the back story, but ok.

Also, I think you are experiencing some sort of disconnect in terms of energy.

You can measure everything in terms of energy and total it all up to arrive at a final cost for energy. Money, resources, and everything gets rolled into that. Even things like feeding the people on the assembly line can be rolled in as can the human effort of having to hand assemble some components.

A 20/20 for 1 would be 1/10 as expensive as a Tarynn'Ixia and there would be no reason not to use 10 of them instead of 1 Tarynn'Ixia.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:32 pm

just because something uses less material doesn't mean said material is as easy to acquire. if its 20/20, then its got enough firepower to measure up to 20 attack (quite a lot, considering a hiraga has 19 firepower), 20 defense (the cheapest costs 2 energy), and only costs 1 energy.

Note that energy =/= money. don't you have to pay for an electric bill? even if someone else does, you immediately get the point that energy is not money, money is not energy, materials aren't free, and if it's going to cost so little energy to produce something, its not going to be easy to find the materials, and hence, they won't be cheap.

break it down. 20 firepower: not cheap. 20 defense: probably cheap, but rarely in combination with such high firepower. cost 1 energy: usually cheap. 1 energy+20 firepower: hugely expensive. after all, if in real life you had 5 railguns (each 1 deals 4 damage and costs 1 to fire)... lets just say I wouldnt want to pay the electric bill on that!
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Chyriax » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:01 pm

sigh. hawk, greywing tried putting in material costs other than energy, eventually he decided to package it all up in one cost type. as such, the material and time it takes to make a hiraga are all represented by the cost in :hu: here. we have certainly already estabilished that :xy: is by no means energy, but instead the appropriate matter for growing specific crystals, but it is also the energy used in XY weapons as energy, simply from the statement that E=MC^2, or the total energy imbeded in matter is equal to the mass multiplied by the speed of light squared. i feel that we could also clasify :mt: as matter in an absorbed form, or purple goop as one might term it. the building block of any MT of any sort. no matter how you look at it, these costs are going to be very inacurate, since, as greywing stated, a single hiraga takes several hundred times the amount of work to make as a single vector. vectors get mass produced on assembly lines, thousands at a time. a single hiraga takes thousands of workers and billions of dollars, as well as multiple facilities to make the parts for it, to make. that single hiraga, however, is also capable of destroying these thousands of vectors with minimal repairs after, compared to in-game, where a vector will cause enough damage that the hiraga could actually be repaired from it. such as this is, the smaller fighters could be thought of as groups of such, all added together until they are in numbers enough to warrant the cost. thats not just one vector for 1 :hu:, thats a bunch of them, if we are to preserve any semblance of comparative costs. regardless, the cost in energy is the converted cost to a universal format that can be compared across each race.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:35 am

At least I am not the only one that understands this concept. Money is just a convenient item to exchange back and forth. Money is worth nothing inherently. The dollar bill itself can't feed you. You could make a fire out of it and keep warm, but that would be a hugely inefficient use of resources. Only the extremely rich would do something like that.

Instead, money represents other things. Most importantly is energy. You can pay somebody $10 for an hour of their energy, for example mowing your lawn, so you don't have to expend your own energy. You could also trade the same $10 for all the energy it takes to plant and grow a couple pounds of tomatoes. You can also trade it for electricity to keep your lights on and all the energy it takes other people to harvest the coal or whatever needed to make it, to build the factories, and all of that.

Energy, in some form or another, is the absolute most important resource. The more you have of it at your disposal, the better off your life is. If you control enough energy, you don't have to do anything ever again if you don't want to.

Represented in game terms, 1 energy is basically the bare minimum input necessary to create the most basic fighting unit. All the man hours that go into harvesting the necessary materials, building the factories, and building the ships, and all that stuff adds up to 1 energy of a given color.

In the most direct comparison, a cost of 10 energy basically means 10 times as many people harvesting 10 times as many resources, building 10 times as many factories, to create a ship 10 times as large.

What I said was to spend that energy much more efficiently than is being done in the game right now. Enough that 1 energy could make a ship that is 20/20. What race would not want to spend the absolute minimum resources to make the most basic ship and instead they get a pretty freaking strong one, certainly much better than a Vector or Combat Dorgan in any event.

Right now, all the races are pretty much equal in how efficiently they use resources. Certain combos of cards aside, most races spend an equivalent amount of energy and make a ship with it that is approximately equal in power level.

What story line sense does that make? Surely out of 8 races you would expect that one of them would be more efficient in how it uses resources and it would be able to make the same ship some other race makes for less energy than it takes them to make it. Maybe the humans have better factory designs than the Ca'anians do (or however this is spelled)?

It makes absolutely no storyline sense that they would all be pretty equal in this way, but it does make in game sense and it allows a playable game to be created because it is this way.

If the game can't make storyline sense in even the most basic form, then I don't see why there is even a point to being nit picky about what a card is called, but that is just me.

If you ask me, anyone willing to sacrifice a playable game for some arbitrary level of "sense" needs to get their priorities straight.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Chyriax » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:07 am

you know penney, i do see one thing here that makes a little more sense than your version of this. each race has different levels of efficiency, but they have similar energy costs. this can just be explained by 1. the efficiency is reflected in the cost anyway, being that if HU is more efficient than CA, each point of HU energy is worth that many juoles less than each point of CA energy, evening it out. 2. i still believe that ships that should cost less than 1 or 2 are built in numbers to a point that the stats and cost actually equal the cards shown, making the basic unit of energy actually comparable to its own value in larger numbers. when refering to races that do stand out for conflicts with this, RV and MT are the only ones that stand out. the RV salvageyard somehow makes more energy off ships than they had to begin with. a single fuel tanker, blowing itself up beyond use, costing 2 energy to make, returns 6 energy from 3 salvageyards. this is a return of more than the ship cost from salvaging the virtualy nonexistent remains after it blows itself up. the other one is the MT entropic link, which does make some sense. considering MT can feed on chaos, they could possibly draw energy from the chaos and confusion resulting from more of them joining the field, proportional to the emphasis placed on propogating and extracting this energy. think of the entropic link as a structure dedicated to making things seem more random and feeding on the confusion and chaos developed thereby. this means that the only energy form that doesn't make sense is the RV salvageyard, which your change to it should fix.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:17 am

The efficiency isn't reflected in the cost, it is reflected in the finished product.

If red could cast the Hiraga for 5, they would have a clear efficiency advantage because the other races get nothing even close for the same 5 energy.

It also doesn't really matter that the cost scales up such that 10 energy is enough to make 1000 vectors instead of just 10, all that really matters is that energy for energy the races either match up or they don't. Vector may or may not be better than Assault Dorgan for the same 1 energy, but if the Vector had the same 5 attack as the dorgan and all the other stuff was the same it would show a clear efficiency advantage for red.

Right now, these officiencies don't exist anywhere. As if somehow every race in the universe just happened to be equally good at everything as all the other races are.

The chances that the top 8 players share the most powerful race slot in an 8 way tie is less than the odds there is sentient life in a far away star system in real life.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby dark1n » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:42 pm

what a needless detour... and all that about torpedo changes. why is it a problem for them to simply not target generators?

PenneyRZ wrote:If you ask me, anyone willing to sacrifice a playable game for some arbitrary level of "sense" needs to get their priorities straight.

it is important for things to make sense in games, as much as the gameplay allows.

this "making sense" is important for at least two reasons:
  • it helps (some) people immerse into the game; (some people, of course, don't even try, but some of us do)
  • (more importantly) it helps people remember game details
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:18 am

The card might as well not even have a name except that it is easier to tell other people what card you mean with a one or two word name rather than having to read off the whole text. It is like a mnemonic device that conveys lengthy card text.

It could just as easily be called adkjfdl as long as people would associate that with what it does. That it is called torpedo does help people remember what it does, which is useful, but it might as well not even be remembered in the first place if it doesn't do something useful.

If it wasn't for me trying to make this card better, nobody would discuss the card at all. If it needs to have an ability that doesn't "make sense" for anyone to even care what the name is, oh well.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Japheth » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:34 pm

Here is an idea. Boarding parties, Rivi action. Ability deal 5 damage a turn for 3 turns to enemy base? base ship? Cost 7 :rv:
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Greywing » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:20 pm

That's not really possible in the current ability system. For an effect to last over a number of turns, it needs to be attached to something that's actually in play.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Chyriax » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:58 pm

exactly why we are asking now, while you are doing the system over. i would like to see more cards with permanant effects outside of ships and structures. make an upgraded flak turret look like this for example
hull mounted turret
elite artifact
6 energy
deals 2 damage to random enemy ship per turn, doesn't take a structure slot.
this allows for some further degree of freedom in what you can make, though should not be made too large in effect/cost due to not taking slots.
also one i have asked for many times
engineers(or crystal cookies for XY)
5 energy
elite artifact
base gets 2 permanant regen, doesn't take a structure slot.
these allow for certain effects to persist regardless of any other effects, and thus circumventing instakills and structure kills slightly, much the same as energy artifacts bypass structure kill now.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby Greywing » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:04 am

I considered regen at one point, but then i realized it's basically the same as having a ship or structure in play that repairs the base each turn.
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Re: Card ideas

Postby PenneyRZ » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:53 am

Chryiax is a smart guy a lot of the time and he does have a point.

It is nice to have an option for a lesser effect that is harder to stop or a bigger effect that is easier to stop.

Artillery Turret costs 3 and is clearly better than his Hull Mounted Turret card in almost every way, however, it is worse in that it blocks you from playing a land and it can be killed by enemy cards that kill lands.

That would let people get around having some of their beneficial effects killed by the enemy sometimes, at the cost of having a weak effect in general.

However, one flaw of allowing such an option is that it would easily stack with what is already present. Some people might not use Hull Mounted Turret in lieu of Artillery Turrets, they might use it in addition to Artillery Turrets for double the smackdown.

I can tell you right now that it can be pretty freaking hard to keep your ships on the board when the opponent has two artillery turrets in play, and if they have 3 or more it is almost impossible. His card Hull Mounted Turret would help for that "almost impossible" scenario to be achieved a lot more easily.

If you need 12 damage a turn for the opponent to have serious trouble keeping ships in play, it would be a lot easier to reach with 4x Artillery Turret + 4x Hull Mounted Turret than with just 4x Artillery Turret.

Similar for the Engineers card. 4x Nebula Spire can be pretty difficult to overcome a lot of the time. Add to that 4x Engineers and it becomes even more difficult.

That is one benefit of the current system. There are 12 slots on the board so that is all the long term effect potential that each player has in terms of ship vs ship. There are 30 or 40 free structure slots for people that want to do nothing but generate energy, but if you want to affect combat you only have 12 slots to do it in.

His cards would balloon that up to 20 potential slots. Some people would have 12 slots whereas some would have 20, or potentially even more if more cards were developed like these.

I do like his idea about a card that is harder to kill with a lesser effect, however, I am not so thrilled about his concept of some people having 20+ combat effecting slots while some others have 12.

I would rather see everyone keep the same number of combat effecting slots.

There are two ways to go about doing a similar thing that I can think of off the top of my head. Both of them keep the essence intact.

Option #1

Make lesser versions of cards, ideally artifacts, like this

Ancient Artillery Turret
3 Random
Structure
Click: Target ship takes 2 damage.
Cloaked

This would make it unable to be killed easily and wouldn't require any new code to implement. The abilities it uses are already coded. If someone used this card they wouldn't have to worry about the opponent kililng it, but they would get a worse effect in the trade off.

Option #2

Ancient Artillery Turret
3 Random
Structure
Click: Target ship takes two damage.
Hardened

The hardened ability would mean that it must be killed twice in order to be removed. This would make it harder than usual to kill, but not immune to being killed. It would combine well with things like Ultranaught and Trasher potentially allowing the player not to suffer from their own card's drawback. Potentially allowing the opponent to escape the immediate penalty as well. This is more of a strategically interesting option and allows for the creation of counters for this sort of card.

Missile Strike
5 Random
Action
Target structure loses hardened, then destroy it.

Mind you I am not trying to support this concept in general, I like the idea that things in play can be countered after all. That is why I argued for the creation of things like Lost Mine and Ancient Torpedo in the first place.

His idea obviously works against that concept.

That being said, there is some merit to the concepts in general. That its ok to have a lesser card that is harder to kill and so on.
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