Formulas for decent multi-race decks

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Wv_Hawk_vW
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Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:47 am

these apply even if your selected races don't have any ships in common. you apply the rules to all races in question. for example, when using the two-race formula for ca'anians and humans, you use 4x solar citadel and 4x dark obelisk. if it is proven that any formula does not work well with more than a certain number of combinations, i will search for a new formula.

Two-race

4 elite energy generators (example: solar citadel, dark obelisk, shield bastion)
4 alternate energy generators (example: battery, antimatter plant, salvageyard, entropic link)
4 high-power big ships (example, tarynn'ixia, hiraga, dreadnought, thunder mage/terror mage, overseer/drone carrier)
4 high-power alternate blockers (example: deflector field AKA bouncer class, unstable freighter)
1 legend (no example needed)
* if not 1 legend, then 1 big ship (example, thunder mage/terror mage, overseer/drone carrier, tarynn'ixia and replace with exion'exus)

Race-pairings this formula does not work well with:

Race-pairings required for a new formula: 14

Three-race

This formula is being generated

race-pairings required for a new formula: 23

Four-race

this formula is being generated

race-pairings for new formula: 30
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:40 am

is nobody going to even try to get triple race and quadruple race formulas? besides, if the dual-race formula doesnt work for any pair, i want to know!

in other news, ive managed to actually splice (rather than splash) the xyloxis and mith'ri'aeil using this formula. works like a charm :P
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby PenneyRZ » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:41 pm

Probably nobody wants to comment because they can't even figure out how to get from what you wrote up there to a deck of 30 cards. If you clarified that enough that people could make a playable deck based on the formula, maybe people might have something they can try out and see if it works enough to comment on it.

Explain it a little bit better how to take that stuff and make a 30 card deck out of it and then give a couple examples of full decks made using this system.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Verden Leafglow » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:52 pm

What I'm trying to figure out is why I'd bother using a Salvage Yard when it depends on at least one ship dying each round to provide as much energy as a Shield Bastion - which is a reality that occurs only when lots of Carriers are involved. If the Salvage Yard IS providing me energy, it's usually because my ships are dying because I can't provide them with the support I need, since I'm not getting that two energy from the Shield Bastion I don't have!
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby PenneyRZ » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:46 pm

That card needs to be changed to do something else anyway. There is no point in bringing that up here. That sort of discussion belongs in the suggestions thread where it already is.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:24 pm

heres the quickest way to prove my formula is working:

4x Nebula scout
4x terror mage
1x chyriax
4x nebula guard tower
4x nebular crystal
4x devourer
4x entropic channeler
1x voidbringer
4x entropic link
4x obscure megalith

color is :mt:

you use salvageyard for the same reason that you use entropic link: its faster and generates more from cheap stuff so you can get bulkier stuff out there.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Verden Leafglow » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:31 pm

That's just the point: it ISN'T faster because it only works when your stuff drops dead/comes in, and once that stops, there's *no more energy*.

As for the deck you just provided, you don't have any card that will give you a Nebular energy to use any of the cards that will give you Nebular energy - save the Entropic Link - which makes a random energy, so you MIGHT get the Nebular energy you need to use other cards. This doesn't strike me as being fast.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:36 pm

the nebular energy also comes from nebular crystal. remember that its like battery, except instead of 2 startup energy, you get 8 hitpoints. besides, it isnt supposed to be fast, its supposed to combine the defense of the xyloxis with the chaoticly high attack of the mithri'aeil.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Verden Leafglow » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:34 pm

Aiiieee I missed the Nebular Crystal. Sorry!
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:34 am

yeah, so now is it fast?

edit: regarding salvageyard and entropic link, i reccomend you consider adding a lost carrier to your deck and trying it out. the fighters are free and activate the link, and when they die, they activate the salvageyard, plus they have 4 damage that can be targeted anywhere where your ships are not-- and if your ships are all blocking slots, your use for lost carrier is a wall with slightly better than usual attack.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby http404error » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:20 am

I do not understand what you are saying here, nor do I understand why this formula makes good decks. And why doesn't that add up to 30? Do you mean 4 copies, or 4 different ones? Why put so many high-cost mono-colored ships?
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:14 am

4 copies. for example, 4 thogrom bombers.

not all the ships are high-cost. deflector field, for example, costs 4 :hu: ; unstable freighter also costs 4 :ca: , and it, while it cannot bounce ships like deflector field (hence the nickname bouncer-class), has a higher defense and can double as an attack ship, and unlike plasma screen, it has regeneration. nebula scout costs 1 :xy: , has 17 defense, and generates 1 :xy: per turn. shield drone, a CC ship, costs 4 :cc: , has 40 defense, and can sacrifice 8 defense to heal the base for 8. Fuel tanker costs 3 and has 20 defence; while that is unusually low for a "defensive" ship, it has a similar advantage to that of unstable freighter, in that it can sacricfice itself and become an item of attack. one of these instakills most ships, two can instakill 95% of all ships, and in the rare event that something has more than 40 defense, it doesn't take much to finish it. devourer is yet another example of a blocker that can double as an attacker. don't even get me started on how many cheap-yet-efficient blockers there are for the technomancers and rift demons!

tl;dr: nearly every race has cheap blockers.

continuing, my deck has enough energy to be able to afford the high-cost monocolor ships. it has enough energy to justify entropic channeler and its many dangerous properties, so voidbringer is easy to obtain, and one of the xyloxi blockers generates energy, making it easier to deploy terror mage and chyriax.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby PenneyRZ » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:36 pm

That blue/purple deck is full of some of the most powerful cards in the game, that is probably the only reason it is playable at all. I did manage to win 20/20 with it on normal AI, but I pretty much hated playing every game. All the games were much closer than they would have been with pretty much any single color deck that was well designed.

I think that purple/blue deck has no real advantages over any single color decks and lots of disadvantages.

If the goal is to come up with something that can be played to a decent win rate, I guess that is good enough although I have my doubts if it would work with less powerful cards or other colors.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:59 am

your right, it has no real advantages, however it does have some of the most powerful cards in the game, meaning that unlike other "average" decks, it can go toe-to-toe with more powerful decks and have a higher chance of winning than the others would. putting it into estimated statistics, this deck has a 50% chance to win and 50% chance to lose against average decks, while maintaining a 40% win 60% lose against strong decks. other average decks have a 70-90% chance for winning normally, but a 10% to win against stronger decks.

with that said, i want you to check out an average dck built with my formula. same races, but thats about it.

4x thunder mage
1x chyriax
4x amethyst xyloxi
4x nebular harvester
4x nebular guard tower
4x negator
1x voidbringer
4x PenneyRZ
4x mind morph
4x entropic link
color is :xy:
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby http404error » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:01 pm

Wv_Hawk_vW wrote:your right, it has no real advantages, however it does have some of the most powerful cards in the game, meaning that unlike other "average" decks, it can go toe-to-toe with more powerful decks and have a higher chance of winning than the others would. putting it into estimated statistics, this deck has a 50% chance to win and 50% chance to lose against average decks, while maintaining a 40% win 60% lose against strong decks. other average decks have a 70-90% chance for winning normally, but a 10% to win against stronger decks.


Now I'm positively perplexed. Why are we trying to make average decks? That's nothing to brag about, and doesn't show much merit if your formula. Why don't we just make the "stronger decks" you refer to? Or make a deck capable of consistently beating the strongest decks?
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:54 pm

so far, I have seen 6 strong decks. by experimenting with the thousands of average decks, there is a chance i can find stronger decks.

besides, so far as i have seen, splicing is nowhere near as powerful as splashing, and my formulas are an attempt to allow for stronger splicing.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:35 am

The problem with "splicing" or what I would call going 50-50 between two different races is that there is zero consistency. Zero consistency loses games that would have otherwise been won. It also makes your deck much slower in those valuable opening turns.

If you want to win consistently it is absolutely imperative that you be able to survive the first 5 turns. I know, it makes sense, right?

Decks that go 50-50 between two colors are maximally likely to end up with cards of color X and energy of color Y. They are also maximally likely to topdeck lands of the wrong color.

Those are game losing problems and ones that can't be cured by anything short of having all your lands be dual lands for your two colors. Only one combo currently even comes close (teal/gold).
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:09 am

this is why i am trying to find formulas for splicing 2 or more races, so there IS the possibility for consistency.

so far, I haven't even found what begins to look like a consistent formula for three-race splicing.

splicing and splashing pretty much go hand-in-hand, except rather than trying to pull specific cards into a deck, the goal is to pull specific traits into a deck. for example, the xyloxis are INCREDIBLY defensive, to say the least; I have built a deck that, not only does it survive in the first five turns, but it doesn't even start deploying ships until at least turn 8. this deck is purely xyloxi; from this deck, i determined that the xyloxis are great at defense, better than even the ca'anians who have the poorly-placed medal of "masters of defense". I also noted that the mith'ri'aeil have the two most powerful ships in the game as well as several of the most powerful cards, most of which come from an extremely high attack, so i labelled the mith'ri'aeil as aggressive. wanting to combine the defense of the xyloxis with the pounding attack of the mith'ri'aeil, i started trying to combine them; until i came up with this formula, all my attempts crashed and burned.

concerning with why i would rather have a broad [50/50]/[45/65] deck than a [60/40][25/75] deck is that, i have noticed that the PVP community and the forum communities seem to be very different and consist of very different people. I prefer the sporadic deck because frankly, i like being able to surprise people using more powerful decks every now and then. they are convinced their decks are the most powerful in the world, and then i take an "average" deck with sporadic statistics and actually win more often than most average decks.

in other words, i like my sporadic average decks because they tend to knock people off the high pedistals they set themselves on. No offense to you, penney; you did not set yourself on a pedistal, other people did, and through a rather wild chain of events, you found your way to the flypaper on top of a pyramid. it would take at least an above average sporadic deck to even have a chance of beating you, which i do not wish to do.

with that said, i would like for us to return to either trying to perfect the two-race splicing formula or find a three-race splicing formula.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby PenneyRZ » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:22 pm

It would be a better idea to just pick any 2 colors, go to the PVP stats and look up the top 2 most played cards of those colors (4 cards in total), put 4 of each in a deck, and then try to make the energy work with the other 14 slots.

That is a pretty simple formula that would produce at least equal or better results as compared to the formula listed above.

There is not going to be a formula that will tell you how to make a deck powerful enough to win sometimes even though it beats itself most of the time. You still have to know what the power cards are and shove as many of them in the stack as possible.

You might as well start with the PVP stats info in that case.
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Re: Formulas for decent multi-race decks

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:20 pm

where do you propose i get access to these PVP stats? i wanted to say something like that, but i couldn't find any up-to-date stats so i couldn't link anyone to them.
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