the three requirements for a good race

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dark1n
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby dark1n » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:20 pm

i agree with brightwolf that dreadnought could use a stat boost.

being mostly unchanged since HD1 (CIP ability buffed), it fell behind in relative power level compared to new ships (added in HDS). for example, RV artillery cruiser has 37HP. dreadnought's 36 HP seem a bit low. maybe all 4 RV battleships could get several HP.

but rivi'i have another problem - they suffer from instant-kill rampage more than other races. not only are expensive battleships being blown up by cheap IK cards, but those also discourage buffing actions like assault and plasma blaster.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby space-mariner51 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:34 pm

dark1n wrote:i agree with brightwolf that dreadnought could use a stat boost.

being mostly unchanged since HD1 (CIP ability buffed), it fell behind in relative power level compared to new ships (added in HDS). for example, RV artillery cruiser has 37HP. dreadnought's 36 HP seem a bit low. maybe all 4 RV battleships could get several HP.

but rivi'i have another problem - they suffer from instant-kill rampage more than other races. not only are expensive battleships being blown up by cheap IK cards, but those also discourage buffing actions like assault and plasma blaster.


Dreadnought might due getting more health or resist; also cloaking, but that's bad. Also reshuffle, but that makes it as hard to get rid of as Phoenix (only discards can remove it for good). Instead, give it immunity to IKs, or make IKs limits to the size of ships they work on. Example:

Energy Burst:
Destroys any ship smaller than a battleship, no effect on battleships and legends
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:23 am

maybe we could give dreadnought an ability like battlecruiser, except +4/+4 on disable instead of +2/+2?

also, maybe we could cloak nanobot leeches? they are underused and for good reason. the leeches are fragile and targetable.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby PenneyRZ » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:15 am

My first loss against normal AI was on the 20th game and the teal/brown opponent decked me. Not bad for a Hawk deck.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:39 am

Oh, stop it you! I'm just now getting to where i can devote attention to actually analyzing what wins and what doesn't, hence all the articles I am writing now.
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http404error
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby http404error » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:56 pm

The thing with racial energy generation differing is that there needs to be a baseline. At the moment, RV are that line. They have next to no special energy generation beyond what the other races have, and that's not that much of a problem, except that their ships are slow and weak to boot.

What they need is the ability to win a prolonged battle. Since the RV tend to be slow (Battlecruiser, Dreadnought, etc.), they should be able to dominate once they reach the mid-late game. Their repeatable targeted damage is acceptable, but still rather weak in this regard.

Now, what is it that wins long drawn-out games? Card advantage. The RV don't have much to any of that either. Maybe if the RV had more card draw, they would be more proficient at winning battles of attrition.

(Penney- I don't feel like your comment directed toward me had much merit. Of course I knew that energy is important.)
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby horizon » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:34 pm

Hi,
albeit a little late to this I must say that the Ri'vi ain't bad at all. But it comes down to your first hand. With the Humans a bad first hand can be thwarted because of the cheap fast attack ships it has at its disposal. The Ri'vi only have a cargo ship to do a little blocking.

However when enery rises the battle line of the Ri'vi is impressive.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Ginger88895 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:09 am

dark1n wrote:i agree with brightwolf that dreadnought could use a stat boost.

being mostly unchanged since HD1 (CIP ability buffed), it fell behind in relative power level compared to new ships (added in HDS). for example, RV artillery cruiser has 37HP. dreadnought's 36 HP seem a bit low. maybe all 4 RV battleships could get several HP.

but rivi'i have another problem - they suffer from instant-kill rampage more than other races. not only are expensive battleships being blown up by cheap IK cards, but those also discourage buffing actions like assault and plasma blaster.


Yeah they should get boost. However, you said It suffers a lot from those killing rampage. I disagree. In fact, killing rampage is the only way to counter RV Xtreme Firepowa.

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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Shadowsun » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:41 am

xtreme firepower ??

dreadnough losses agains the most other battleships even if dread has the first attack (you can do the math by yourself)

hammerhead and siege cruiser have all around the same stats as other ships in that class, but if it comes to ship to ship combat others have more usefull abilitys like retaliate or regen (yes hammerhead has a ship kill ability, but most of the time it isnt verry usefull to blow up your own 8 energy cruiser)

battlecruiser is only strong if he has enough time to grow up


whats left ??

yes ultranought is a nice ship but hes legend and you cant hold the bord with 1 ship alone

artillery cruiser is a nice blocker and has some xtra dmg

all other ships are suport ....

so 1 legend and a nice cruiser is firepower ?

at moment rv is a race with alot of tool ships (destroy ships/structures, heal, buffs) and one of the best, if not the best action card set

but in the end, most of rv ships cant win the lane alone against the same class ships from other races and if you buff them they get insta killed, debuffed or just die cause of the enemy ship has regen, retaliate or stat lowering abilitys .....


ye ... way to much text to point out that rv suffers ALOT from instakills and that instakillng isnt the "only way" to beat them

just my 2 cent


PS: hope my "broken" english isnt to hard to read
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby PenneyRZ » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:11 pm

A lot of RV's strength against the AI comes in the form of the Nanobot Carrier, which gives brown ships greatly more longevity. That is completely worthless against human players for the most part. It doesn't do nearly enough damage to kill anyone and it sucks really bad in multiples due to Chain Reaction vs being really good in multiples against the AI.

Nanobot Swarm is also a similar card that is quite powerful against the AI and not nearly as good against players.

Both of those cards together enable Dreadnoughts to be good against opposing assault class ships vs the AI and combined with the fact that the AI will just keep putting land in front of the Dreadnought over and over again, altogether it is a playable strategy.

Vs players, brown pretty much can't do any of that.

Against players, brown is more going to be about Ultranought, Siege Cruiser, Chain Reaction, and Ambush. Not that these are bad cards, but they don't together make up a strategy that is particularly earth shattering.

The Ultranought is a great ship, but as mentioned before you can't throw out more than one, which could lead to a lot of dead cards in hand with 4 in the stack. It also gives the opponent a lot of energy advantage if they Lost Mine it.

The Siege Cruiser is also a great ship, but it isn't going to take out enemy Terror Mages any time soon. It would take pretty much the whole 4 pack of them to take down just one Terror Mage, not to mention a lot of energy disadvantage thrown in the mix. It is also not particularly good vs 6/32 untargetable ships that can heal either, for that matter.

If the metagame was different, they would probably be doing a lot better, but things the other colors have are particularly powerful against them and they don't really have a lot that is equally as powerful to use against the other colors.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby DEEP SPACE » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:56 pm

On HD:X the RV have the Recycler wich with its ability can become to powerfull. as well is vulnerable to Spark, and lost Mine. It is Still strong vs a Venom, or a Terror Mage.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:03 am

Deepy's right. the rivi'i have gotten very, very effective in the metagame. salvageyards can generate more energy than shield bastions when combined with lost carriers, and recyclers can become some rather fat battleships, also when combined with lost carriers. recycler starts off with just 30 defence, meaning that even if it never grows up, it's still a good blocker, and for 4 :rv:, it's a good CHEAP blocker, too.

another reason the rivi'i have become so effective is grav tide generator. for just 2 :rv: and a structure slot, all your ships have haste, and battlecruiser can buff itself and still attack. again, both of these have a low cost. even without grav tide generator, a single battlecruiser can still grow bigger than most cruisers of the same cost: it gains +2/+4 and that substitute 4 regeneration can actually hold back many smaller ships, similar to how amethyst xyloxi does it.

finally, with the introduction of grav tide generator and recycler, battle carrier is finally a viable carrier. while it costs 8 to launch, it launches fighters; these fighters are 4/8 and make great walls. if a nano fighter survives, it also repairs your base; if it doesn't, it fuels recycler's unstoppable rampage and supplies your salvageyard. battle carrier, combined with lost carrier, can deal large amounts of damage; combine these with salvageyards and recyclers, and you can generate lots of energy, buff your ships, and block your enemies, all at the same time.

here, I've even built a deck to counteract your argument.

4x fuel tanker
4x battlecruiser
4x battle carrier
4x recycler
4x lost carrier
4x salvageyard
4x shield bastion
4x grav tide generator

This powerful deck has been able to consistently able to beat level 5 AI. so far, I have a 9 win streak against level 5. in other words, he has 115 hitpoints, 1 extra energy generation, 1 resist, 3 starting energy, and and level 3 cards. This isn't stated, but i suspect level 5 ai also has a smarter ai than lower levels; in other words, a level 4 deck with a level 5 ai would perform better than a level 4 deck with a level 4 ai. This deck is brown, and is able to perform better under worse circumstances than another brown deck made using the same cards you mentioned, as well as the other cards you tend to vouch as "the bread and butter of brown decks" such as artillery cruiser and shield frigate. specifically, this is the deck i used:

4x nanobot carrier
4x dreadnought
4x shield frigate
4x artillery cruiser
4x siege cruiser
4x grav wave hub
4x shield bastion
4x nanobot swarm
4x combat support
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Shadowsun » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:07 am

1. i never said rivi is weak or isnt playable
2. iam speaking about rivi in hds not hdx
3. i never compare deck strength against ai because many decks who are strong against ai are just crap in pvp (and the other way around) and in my opinion "real" balance can only be made in pvp when both sides have the same start conditions not like in pve with all these bonus energy and life points for the ai


i play rivi alot, because i like the images and the style (and ultranought xD ), and i win many games in pvp with them but most of the time because i destroy structures and shut down enemys energy gain and not with pure "firepower" or with 60 card decks
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:18 am

Agreed on most parts. in fact, one of the best rivi'i decks i have ever found actually had 30 cards, not 60. however, as for playing against the AI, I'm hoping that the AI is better at simulating players in HDX than it is in HDS.

as for you saying it isn't unplayable and that it's not strong, i agree; it's penney i was disagreeing with. using HDS cards alone, salvageyard+lost carrier is STILL one of the best energy combis in the game. here's the decklist, from memory:

4x shield bastion
4x salvageyard
4x lost carrier
4x fuel tanker
4x hammerhead
4x dreadnought
2x ultranought
4x combat support

I know the rivi'i are strong in the current game. unlike penney, I don't believe in a "metagame" however in order to argue with him, i have to discuss the metagame.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby http404error » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:40 pm

How can you not believe in a metagame? That seems impossible. Let's take Rock, Paper, Scissors for an example.

Now for the purposes of this example, let's say your hometown has an RPS league of about a hundred people or so. You play one round only. Draws are left unresolved and you just move on. Therefore, the average win rate is one game out of three.

If you run a study on your RPS league and find that due to psychological reasons, in the first round against an opponent you don't know, Rock is chosen 35% of the time, Scissors 33%, and Paper a mere 32%. Your best option for the opening move is now Paper. So you begin to use Paper and find that your win rate begins to exceed one out of three games. However, other people begin to notice this too. Following your increased success in the League, the copycats begin to use Paper more often as well. Now Paper is used 40% of the time, Scissors 40%, and Rock 20%. What happened here? Well, a lot of people noticed that they were losing as Rock and changed to Paper so that they could beat all the other Rocks. However, the smarter among them realized that people were shifting to Paper and so in order to win, they shifted to Scissors to beat the new majority of Papers. This cycle continues endlessly as certain moves gain and lose popularity. The best players are always on top of the common mindset. The best players are always one step ahead of the rest of the crowd. But hold on, am I saying RPS is a skill-based game? No, it's not. The psychological aspect of analyzing what is most popular and then beating that is a whole layer of game on top of RPS. It's the METAGAME, by definition.

Ideally, RPS would settle out into nice 33.33% chances so that game would be perfectly balanced. This will never happen. People DO pick Rock more often than the other choices where I live. Perhaps in other places the METAGAME is different.

Now, let's apply this concept to Hidden Dimensions PvP. It's not quite RPS, though. For one, there are far more than three choices. Secondly, there is typically a "best deck" at any given time that beats more decks than it loses to. However, no strategy is perfect, and HD is a balanced enough game to not be overwhelmed by a single strategy. Now, for the sake of explanation, let's assume people regularly play HD:S PvP. Even though they don't. Enough people play it that strategies and strong decks can emerge. Let's say Deck A is very popular in the current environment. It has a very good win rate. You hate losing to it. This is probably the Draw Denial deck. What happens now? Same thing as RPS. Someone pioneers the deck that beats Deck A. Many people start playing it and beating Deck A. However, the Hoser deck as it shall now be called, loses to most regular decks because it is so focused on beating Deck A that it becomes weak to Rush and Beatdown and standard Control, etc. So when the Hoser deck gets popular, people realize this and start playing strong attacker decks to beat Hoser, and preferably everyone else too. So the choice of "What is the best choice of deck at any given time" is constantly evolving over time as people try to stay one step ahead of everyone else. This is called THE METAGAME.

tl;dr [[Normal decks <- "The Best Deck" <- "The Deck that beats the best deck" <- Normal decks]] is basically Rock, Paper, Scissors, and the popularity of certain options constantly changes and evolves in what is known as THE METAGAME, or the game outside the game.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Greywing » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:48 pm

Don't forget to mention that inbetween the transitions of popular decks, there will be peaks in the whining of people who are in no way up to date on the meta game :p
The thing is then -as a developer- to try not give into the whining and let the RPS cycle continue it's natural flow. The larger and more active the comunity, the easier it is to handle this though (of course you need some basic balance to begin with, else it just breaks down).
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:51 pm

that type of metagame i believe in. I believe i was mistaken; it's the middlegame i don't believe in. there are three basic strategies: Rush, build, and smash. in my experience, any deck based primarily on the build stage is bound to lose. that's why i don't believe in the middlegame, the build stage. however, as much as i dislike basing strategies on the middle stage, if a deck based on either rush or smash also has components that make it decent in the build stage, said deck will be stronger than a similar deck that doesn't have build-stage components.

Here's one example of a rush-build deck that, accidentally, also has the ability to compete in the smash stage.

4x nagato
4x tarogi
4x firewing
4x amiaru
2x power plant
4x solar citadel
4x battery
4x new intel

it technically has 30 cards, but i included intel in order to reduce that number to 26 cards. if you have fewer cards on hand than your opponent, it's free anyway. battery is yet another example of a rush card: it gives you 2 solar energy (enough to deploy any ship except amiaru) and 1 energy generation afterwards, and it doesn't sacrifice a structure slot. the amiaru also helps increase the speed of the deck. the only ship that costs more than 2 is amiaru, and it has good reason: on top of increasing the speed, amiaru also increases longetivity. Firewing, again, increases longetivity, and has 5 attack, meaning that on top of being effective defensively, it's decent in the endgame. Tarogi, on top of healing allied ships, is great for when you are low on base hitpoints; solar citadel assist tarogi in its job. nagato is this deck's primary mode of attack. with it's energy sink ability, i can now practically bring a battleship to the battle without needing a hiraga to do that for me.

this entire deck was designed for rushing, and it also has strategies for lasting long after the rushing stage is over. that's part of what makes this deck better than most others.
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Ginger88895 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:43 pm

No, I mean Rv should get stat, and after getting the stat it has Xtreme firepowa.
LIke Dreadnought 12/36 into 18/42 and Ultranought into 24/64. RV is not good at ewar, so this is ABSOLUTELY rational and acceptable IMO.

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Shadowsun
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Shadowsun » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:41 pm

boosting stats will not help much

i think they are good as they are because destroying lands can help alot, in my opinion the instakills just need a little change into "do 30-40 dmg" or "reduce defense to 1" or something like that.
atleast ships could block for 1 turn more or could use the abilitys a 2cond time

its just anoying at moment..... if you try to play some nice big ships + some buffs you are doomed cause they just get instakilled away
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Re: the three requirements for a good race

Postby Wv_Hawk_vW » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:33 pm

when HD:X comes out, you won't need to worry about instakills. you can easily deploy big ships, lots of big ships, without them being instakilled. even if you don't bother with big ships, the RV is getting plenty of medium ships you can use, and some of those medium ships actually turn into even bigger ships.
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