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Card Requests 
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Post Re: Card Requests
building on your argument that its not overpowered simply because a rush deck beats my deck, like i said, is similar to saying that a 999/999 ship that destroys all opposing ships and structures when deployed, has a free ability to instakill ships, and only costs 1, isn't overpowered, simply because of lost mine. I'm just saying, because your rush and discard decks are literally the only things that can guarantee that my deck won't win.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Does your deck win 100% of the time against non-rush, non-discard deck ? -> NO

And I am fairly sure that a good control deck without discard can achieve about 50% win against you.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:24 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
does ANYTHING win 100% of the time against anything? -> NO

I am fairly sure that eventually, you will end up unlucky and realize my point about winning 90% of the time being an achievement. also, I'm pretty sure that nearly every good control deck without discard has failed to achieve 30% win against me. if spectate was possible, you would know.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:35 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Well it's quite simple, while playing a quasi identical TM deck months ago, I could see that even if I owned most players, the best one (playing control decks) could still achieve about 50% winrate against my deck.

I am positively certain that me or Camus (at least) can come up with control decks (using no discard) that can achieve 30% winrate at the very least. If this is really the case then point proven : if the TM deck has 70-30 outcome against control, 30-70 (or less) against rush, and an unknown but probably not favorable outcome against discard control, then we cannot say that it is overpowered.

Anyway, simply implementing Greywing's planned change to link (trigger only for ships) would be more than enough to nerf the color to a balanced power level, in my opinion. Doing more would get us back to the before the TM buffing, where it was the worse race.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:50 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Entropic Link doesn't need to be nerfed, it just needs to do something else equally as powerful that is less engine-like.

I suggested giving a random +0/+1 per turn because that is synergistic with a lot of things purple already has.

A quick list of cards that would benefit by it much more than they would by a simple +0/+1 is:
Devourer - Hit this once with that effect and it can deal 10 damage an additional time.
Adaptomorph/Mutating Vector - The biggest weakness of tthese cards is the low starting life. The effect could buy it more time to grow.
Negator/Enslaved Soldier - Regen is synergistic with higher base HP.
Entropic Channeler - More time for the mana pool to increase into dangerous territory before this dies.
Voidbringer - As if the growth and self healing of this thing doesn't already make it hard enough to kill.
Grasper Morph - Buys this more time to reduce the opposing ship's attack.

That pretty much makes it synergistic with everything purple has.

If this

Entropic Link
Structure
Generates 1 energy per turn and a random ship on your side gets +0/+1.

isn't good enough, then make it +0/+2 instead.

What purple needs is to be competitive card for card and not just to have to rely on explosive draws in order to be able to get wins. The way Entropic Link is now (and the suggestion of only trigger on one's own ships) just makes it a crutch.

Purple shouldn't be denied powerful cards because they become too powerful in combination with the hideous amount of energy that purple can generate in the very early game with their crutch cards. We need to get rid of the crutch and teach purple how to walk without it.

Also, make sure you guys limit your bickering to PVP, because I have a PVE deck that doesn't have a single loss and it has about 200 wins. It is just a regular deck too, nothing overly special about it.

Hawk - You should probably just give up, btw.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:05 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
quick question: Which is more powerful, my lance deck, which wins against 90% of all players and their decks, but is weak against discard and rush decks (which accounts for 10%), or discard and rush decks, which only work against 20% of players and their decks?

if you can prove that the latter is more powerful, than I will back down.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:26 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
What exactly is the card list for this "lance" deck?

Just wondering what super awesome is supposed to look like.

Also, I don't think Kuro would be the highest ranked PVPer if rush only worked 20% of the time.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:44 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
His "lance" deck is the obvious TM combo deck, the one we figured out about one day after the big TM buffing.

4 links
4 lost carriers
4 channelers
4 abom
4 hives
4 obscur megaliths
4 entro. monoliths (anti-denial)
2 space warp

It should be something like this. I played the same back then, only with maybe 2 chain reactions instead of an abom and a hive. The deck gets owned by discard (because it usually saves its key cards for when it has enough energy) and rush because it is defenseless during the first turns and barely gains life (also it can get owned by trashers). Against the rest it may achieve high winrate, but against most top decks (and/or top players) it should not be above 70% because of intrinsic instability and simple bad luck (to which all decks are vulnerable to a variable extant).

PenneyRZ wrote:
Also, I don't think Kuro would be the highest ranked PVPer if rush only worked 20% of the time.


I am only second now (by 38 points), although I believe I have the highest winrate (the first player, Camus, has lesser winrate but more games played). Also, at least half of my wins were done with non-rush decks.

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Last edited by Kuro on Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:00 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
I label my decks so I dont have to post their listings, so that people know what I am talking about without me having to tell them what its made of.

I am going to have to fight you with citadel, kuro, to prove that rush decks aren't as strong as you think.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:08 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Every deck has its counter deck, nothing new here.

Of course you should be able to come up with some deck design that can achieve 70% winrate or more against a rush deck, but if the resulting deck is not any good against non-rush decks, what is the point except to prove something that is already known ?

Also, this is getting off-topic.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:11 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Wv_Hawk_vW wrote:
I label my decks so I dont have to post their listings, so that people know what I am talking about without me having to tell them what its made of.

I am going to have to fight you with citadel, kuro, to prove that rush decks aren't as strong as you think.


That is good, except when other people don't know what you call whatever deck.

If you just use the same name everyone else has called the deck for the better part of a year, then more people will know what you are talking about.

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Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:56 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
An idea about potential energy sink for late game (most likely in the form of new click-abilities on currently weak cards, for example most 1-coster) -> the ability can be similar to white channeler : it drains all your [ship's main color] energy (for example :hu: for vector), and depending on the race/ship it could repair base for X, or damage target ship for X, repair target ship for X, or drain X energy from opponent's pool, where X is the energy you lost.

That would allow for some nice effects on late game when you have 20+ spare energy, but would be nearly useless early game because it would cripple your development. In some case the ship could also be sacrified when the ability is clicked.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:05 am
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Post Re: Card Requests
The general idea of draining energy of race X on a card of another race is something that's already planned. I only have a couple actual card planned. These examples aren't really to be used as energy sink, rather than as a boost to card when used in a specific color combo deck.

Example :
Siege Praetor (CC/HU) : 7/24 commander, costs 7+0 (ideally it costs 6 + 1 random, but that requires a new mechanic)
play : drains up to 2 solar energy when enters play, for each energy drained, it deals 2 damage to opposing base
acti : deals its damage to target ship, if that ship survives, it retaliates for its attack

Basically these are dual race cards without a cost in the color of the second race, so you can still use them in single color decks. However, in the above example, if you use the card in a CC/HU deck, it might get stronger than if you were to use it in any other deck.
The difficulty in balancing is deciding on a upper limit for energy. You could say it drains everything and then for every X (X being in the 3-5 range at least), it does something, but this might get out of hand if you have 20-30 or even more energy in stock. If this happens late-game it's not so much an issue, but it might be if it happens in the first few turns of a game. If you need 10 turns to save up enough energy to do for instance 30 damage to base on turn 15, it might break a stalemate and even end the game - that's ok. If it happens in turn 5 and once more in turn 10, it's a problem.

There will be new activatable abilities on the smaller ships, and those will be relatively expensive. In case of a Vector it could be a acti that gives the ship +x/+y for a cost of (x+y+1). It remains a small ship even with a couple boosts, but it'll become less and less useless late game if you can keep boosting it.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:30 am
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Post Re: Card Requests
I maintain with my original idea for sinking one's own energy. A click ability on something like a Vector and Battle Dorgan (mostly 1 costers) that costs 6 energy and gives the ship +2/+2 is pretty ideal.

The Siege Praetor card is pretty interesting too.

However, I do still think that 1 shot 100% drains are quite necessary for long term game balance. It should also be extremely easy to code.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:48 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Aye, the smallest ships are the perfect candidates for this and the cost range sounds close to what i have in mind as well. I haven't really looked into what ships will get them and which abilities would work best. The simplest solution is a +x/+y for all of them, but i rather see some variation that works best with each specific race.
One other ability i had in mind for such a ship is a self-destruct for a low cost + an additional effect. Basically getting rid of your small ships to play bigger ones.
Could be somewhere along the lines of : self destruct this ship to deal X damage to target ship or base, or increase the defense of target ship or lower the attack of target ship, etc, etc.

Regarding energy drains, with the new targetmodes i mentioned before, it would be possible to change cards that drain X random to drain X of your choice. You'd get a popup screen allowing you to click any of the stocks the opponent has and then drain up to X from that stock (or leave it at random per your choice in that popup screen).
But that change has more to do with getting rid of some random elements than buffing energy drain.

Energy drain needs to be balanced vs structure destruction and card drawing, that's why i'm not messing with it before the alpha is out. I've removed the activated draw denial protection abilities and some discards will be toned down (mind wipe becomes : look at opponents hand and have opponent discard a card of your choice). And so will structure destruction (artifact torpedo change and possible change to adelan so it can only destroy a structure every other turn).
Then, if the massive generation capabilities of MT are also toned down AND we get abilities that work as energy sinks, chances are good that at the end of any turn there won't be much energy left to drain at all and these energy drain actions become more powerfull by themselves.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:02 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
dark crystal and fusion drain might be in line for a minor boost (i repeat minor) simply because energy generation is way higher now then when those two cards were made (HD1); the fact that a card is useless on turn 22 is not a reason to buff it.

Greywing wrote:
Example :
Siege Praetor (CC/HU) : 7/24 commander, costs 7+0 (ideally it costs 6 + 1 random, but that requires a new mechanic)
play : drains up to 2 solar energy when enters play, for each energy drained, it deals 2 damage to opposing base
acti : deals its damage to target ship, if that ship survives, it retaliates for its attack

i like it except for 1 thing:
1) the name - i associate word "siege" with things that continually hit the base (berserker or siege cruiser); i'd prefer some other prefix.
2) i know i said "1 thing"... this isn't just about praetor... newer cards (cards from HD2 and a glimpse of those that come in HD3) make some cards that are unchanged from HD1 look sad... ca'anian guardian comes to mind. it was supposed to be a sturdy blocker with unmatched 2 resistance; now, pulsar has the same resistance and many 4-costers have 25+ defense. even soldier drone used to be a 4-coster in HD1 with 17 def...

Greywing wrote:
There will be new activatable abilities on the smaller ships, and those will be relatively expensive. In case of a Vector it could be a acti that gives the ship +x/+y for a cost of (x+y+1). It remains a small ship even with a couple boosts, but it'll become less and less useless late game if you can keep boosting it.

i am 100% in favor of general idea, but not this for vector.

it's a human fighter. i seems wrong for it to keep growing. how about this: "disengage from combat; deal 4 (or whatever) damage to opposing ship and disable it for one turn."
so - it makes room for a more serious ship, and enables it to have a first strike.

frankly, i imagined this on a destroyer, not a fighter but it's better than a self-buffing vector. i think i proposed an ability earlier for a ship (pulsar for example) to self-destruct in order to disable three opposing ships.

also of all the 8 races, humans are the last one that needs a sink.


Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:48 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Vector was just an example, nothing has been set in stone yet for these abilities.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:00 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
Maybe having the ability for ships to "withdraw" would be better. It would be similer to recycle which is used by structures. It would work a bit like how the sabotaoge card works on your opponents but it would be shuffled back into the deck. This is an idea I thought of so you can throw it away if you would like to.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:59 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
It's not a bad idea, but it could turn into decking protection, especially on small ships that can be cast the next turn.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:28 pm
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Post Re: Card Requests
But as is, it could only be used before the attack phase. The thing I'm really worried about is it being used to prevent a card from being destroied on the battlefield.

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Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:48 pm
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